lunabee34 | Been thinking thinky thoughts

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Been thinking thinky thoughts

First, GIP.

ponders_life said she would make me the icon of my choice for my birthday, and look at this beautiful "thanks" icon she made me!!!!! I love it. She actually made me three, bless her heart. (We say that a lot in the South. *g*)

Okay, I have been thinking about something for a little while now, and I wonder what you guys think about it. I've noticed that quite a few fics exist where Spike has sex with himself, and not in the masturbatory way. As in, he meets a version of himself from another dimension or the past or something and proceeds to knock boots with himself. Or, he somehow separates into two entities--Spike the demon and William the human. A couple examples are the inimitable

jameschick's Quantum Xander 1 and its sequel. (There's also another well done one that involves Xander and the AI team as super badasses that I can't remember the title of.) I'm also including in this category William/Spike stories, where William and Spike are brothers. Although I'm not suggesting that other [insert lit crit word that I can't think of cause I'm outta school, durn it] aren't happening in these incesty stories, I think that on some superficial level, at least, they are also about Spike having sex with himself. In other words, I am not reducing these fics to being "merely" about Spike's fullbodied onanism. LOL

I think fics where Xander has sex with himself must be out there, too, because of the whole Toth incident. I haven't read any, though.

So here's the tripartite question. Does this "character has sex with self" fic occur with any other characters in BtVS/Ats fanficdom? Does this "character has sex with self" fic occur in any other fandoms that you know of? (I'm thinking it might in anime fandoms or other supernatural fandoms.)

Finally, and this is the biggie: Why do you think people write "character has sex with self" fics? I think that fanfic works on a variety of levels and to achieve a number of goals for both the reader/writer. I think ONE of those goals to is to explore, achieve, do, experience something one will never explore, achieve, do, experience in RL. So, is "the character has sex with self" fic a shoutout to human narcissism? When I started really thinking about this, the idea of having sex with myself was actually pretty apalling to me. To actually experience what another body experiences in a sexual encounter with me sounds very frightening.

I'm sure that part of the appeal of these kinds of fics is "Character A is HAWT! Character A squared is even HAWTER!!!!!" But there has to be more to it than that? Right? LOL

Feel free to pass this along to anybody you think is interested in these fics; now that I've started thinking about them, the Lorraine!brain is on overtime.

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I've seen the Spike ones too. I haven't seen it with any other character, unless you count Buffy/Buffybot, I have seen one of those. Or body-switching stories (entirely too many W/S like that. I agree, that there are probably Xander ones because of the Toth thing but I haven't seen any because...well, you know there's little chance of me finding a Xander fic about anything at all. :)

I have seen some Harry Potter fandom ones. The time-turner thing has spiraled way out of control in that fandom. Sorry, still rather disturbed by the Tom Riddle/Voldemort fic I saw once. (not as disturbed as I was by the Snape/Crookshanks but...)

I would think they probably do exsist in other fandoms, but I don't really read any others. And I have no idea why those fics are so common, I agree with you it just seems weird.

Oh, Buffy and Buffy-bot. I hadn't thought of that, but that's a perfect scenario to create those kinda fics with if you were so inclined.

Or body-switching stories

What do you mean? I know I'm being dense here, but I'm not quite sure what you're talking about.

Body switching, what I've seen the most is Willow and Spike switching bodies. Because that is the only way you can possibly have a spell go wrong, you know. :) I have seen Spuffy stories that do the same thing. I'd give you names of specific fics but that plot has been so overused I avoid them now.

Oh, I get ya now. Willow having sex with Spike but from inside Spike's body and he's inside her body. Gods, why is it so difficult to say that clearly? Maybe that's a sign. LOL

because it's a bad, bad story idea. Now, if I could just figure out why every W/S author feels the need to write it at least once...

And here is where the patheticness that is Chelle's life rears its ugly head.

Yes, there are more of the 'sex with self' fics out there. sadbhyl wrote one called The Sum of Her Parts (http://www.sadbhyl.riverworld.net/Stories/Sum/sum%201.htm) in which Buffy gets it on with herself. Literally herself. Also, there are some w/ Xander involved with Vamp!Xander in which he really gets a wiggy about it. Can't remember the title of that one though. And of course, there's In From the Cold by

camisha and

reremouse, but you've probably already seen those.

Don't feel too pathetic...or at least leave room on the couch of despair for me. I was going to point out Sum of Her Parts, I just couldn't remember the title.

Oooh, there's a couch of despair now? I'll bring the nachos.

Ooooh, thanks for the link. *runs to check it out*

I adored In From the Cold. I really did. That's one of the only incest fics I've ever read. And that one's not really incesty. It just has undertones. But that last chapter......Wow. *puddle of Lorraine*

Sum of her parts gets kinda raunchy in the later chapters, but all in all is a really good fic. By the time the ummmm hotness ensued, I was hooked. Totally took me by surprise it did, but I enjoyed every minute of it. Hope you do too.

Yeah, I loved In From the Cold. Don't know if I commented enough on it, but yeah. Really good Spander AU that one was. *sigh*

For some reason, the first thing that came to mind on thinking about Spike having sex with himself was the Billy Idol hit, Dancing with myself, which I am sure is just a coicidence. Except not at all. *g*

I'm pretty much a virgin to other fandoms (hey, I claim the virgin title wherever I can, obscure though it may be) to comment on the first part of your question. But as to whether sex-with-self fics are a shout-out to human narcissicm? That would be a big HELL YEAH!

Think of look-alike celebrity couples: Mick and Bianca Jagger for a vintage example- it is said they were introduced at a party by a mutual friend who thought they looked alike, which, yes. And a more recent pairing would be Benjamin Bratt and wife Talisa Soto, who look enough alike to have a kind of creepy incest vibe, for me anyway.

It is indeed the one sexual experience we are guaranteed not to have, sex with oneself, but who better than you to know what pleases you? It would be the ultimate dirty thrill, at least for those whose self-esteem and thus narcissm holds no limits.

Very interesting topic, MsL- I look forward to seeing what everyone makes of it. Er, so to speak...

It is indeed the one sexual experience we are guaranteed not to have, sex with oneself, but who better than you to know what pleases you? It would be the ultimate dirty thrill, at least for those whose self-esteem and thus narcissm holds no limits.

That's true; it's pretty much the one thing we really can't do. And, on the one hand, I agree that you know your body and how to please it better than anyone else. But on the other hand, you would have to have a heck of a lot of self esteem as you say. I mean, what if what you felt wasn't as great as you thought it would be? You know? Everytime after that when you had sex with somebody else, you'd be thinking, "I know what it feels like to grab my ass like that, and it feels like I'm the cellulite princess." Or whatever else. LOL

Wordsmith wrote one with 2 Xanders (Suave!Xander and Goofy!Xander) and 2 Spikes (William and Spike).

Oh, thanks!

BTW, I love your handle and the matching icon. *admires*

Thank you!

My handle came from an oft-repeated adage of my Hoo-Hoo (chinese for my mother's mother), "Soup and Oolong tea are essential for good health."

Wise woman. :)

I had some of both today. LOL

"When I started really thinking about this, the idea of having sex with myself was actually pretty apalling to me. "

I almost fell out of my chair laughing at that comment. WHY? Because I was thinking the same exact thing, only I also mentally added an ewww, and an I don't F'in think so! (referring to sex with myself, I'm sure sex with Lorraine would be all kinds of nifty!)

Actually, I think it is a narcissistic thing. Perhaps we'd LIKE to be able to think enough of ourselves to WANT to knock boots with ourselves (love that phrase, my other half and his best buddy have been saying that one for years!)...I think to expand on that concept, out of all the characters in the Buffy verse, Spike seems to be the most narcissistic one there. Then Whedon goes and throws such obvious things at us like Toth, or the two sides of any vampire (the human and the more hedonistic, animalistic vampire side). Throughout the history of the show, almost ALL of the characters got to explore their opposites, however briefly. With Willow realizing her vamp self is "kinda Gay" after getting a big ole lick up the side of the face or simply seeing wussy William in such contrast to Spike. While I don't usually like those particular stories (boinking oneself) they do seem to be ripe for writing in this verse.

I also agree that to some extent, it is about pushing the envelope; entering areas and doing things we can't get away with in RL.

I know I've read a couple fics where Xander has boinked himself or a version of himself - usually in variations on the Toth theme. They usually also involve some form of a Spike Sandwich. One even had BOTH two Spikes AND two Xanders. Can't think of the names off hand though.

I'm sure sex with Lorraine would be all kinds of nifty!

Let's hope so. I'm not planning on asking former lovers for an enumerated list of my abilities any time soon. LOL

Perhaps we'd LIKE to be able to think enough of ourselves to WANT to knock boots with ourselves

I think you're right.

Throughout the history of the show, almost ALL of the characters got to explore their opposites, however briefly.

Absolutely. Giles/Ripper, Tara's fear that she's really a demon, etc etc. That's a really good point.

I think some of it has to do with the fact that one of 'whoever' is just never enough. Most of the 'sex with himself' stories I ventured to read had to do with there being 2 versions, that although they looked alike acted very differently. In which case they would appeal to different people, ie. good Xander/Angel, bad Xander/Spike. And most of the time the having sex with themselves comes from curiousity, you know, what would it feel like to touch myself, or what do I look like when I'm feeling this? That sort of thing.

And it's not just in the btvs fandom. I've seen it in the xfiles fandom also. Mostly original Mulder with a cloned Mulder. And even then the original ended up with one partner and the clone another. After of course a little exploring the self on self action out of curiosity.

I don't have a real attraction myself to those types of stories but I know a lot of people do.

I think some things are just real easy to accept when you're dealing with fictional characters because some where in your head you know it's not real so how could it be wrong?

Or am I the only one who tells themself that? *looks worried*

Most of the 'sex with himself' stories I ventured to read had to do with there being 2 versions, that although they looked alike acted very differently. In which case they would appeal to different people, ie. good Xander/Angel, bad Xander/Spike.

Absolutely. I've noticed that too. In a lot of ways, these fics are really interesting ways to explore different parts of the same character by giving those different parts different bodies to live in.

Or am I the only one who tells themself that? *looks worried*

No, you're not. LOL I think we all tell ourselves that. Heeee

In many fandoms, there's a group (class? sub-sub-sub-genre?) of fics where a character will have sex with a cross-over character that was played by the same actor. I believe the catch-all name is "actor fic", but I won't swear to it. An example would be, oh, Buffy and Daphne (from Scooby Doo), both as played by SMG, getting it on together.

Fandoms I can think of off the top of my head where I've seen this include ... The Sentinel, X-Files, Due South.

Oh, and the Hercules/Xena universe is a special case where this is extremely prevalent. But that's probably because most regulars in the Herc/Xena-verse played more than one character *and* they had a version of a "mirror-verse".

Oh -- and Stargate SG-1 has a mirror-verse as well. Well, a multitude of them, actually.

And of course, I'm sure that original Trek has these kinds of stories, too, especially since the phrase "mirror-verse" kinda originated with that show's episode "Mirror, Mirror".

I can't be more specific than that, though, because though I love crossovers, I dislike crossover-pairings (being mostly a OTP girl). Oh, and because I don't read Trek slash.

Thanks for all the info. I had never heard of the "actor fic." I'm not sure what I think about that. I'll have to go find one and read it. LOL

I don't read Trek fanfic, but I'm sure you're right. The mirror-verse is a perfect way for the characters to meet up with other versions of themselves.

Cheers!

So the "actor fic" thing kept bugging me. I remember seeing it refer to the two different characters played by the same actor thing, but I couldn't remember where.

So I did some poking around in meta sites and fannish glossaries/dictionaries I have bookmarked. And basically those that referenced it used it synonymously with RPF (Real Person fic), like LoTRPS and the like.

Now, I'm still 99% sure that I saw it used with the meaning from paragraph one above. But I can't remember where. Most likely, it was in various fic rec/review/critique sites, but there's no way I'm ever gonna remember where. I suspect the meaning might have drifted over to mean the same as RPF as RPF (and RPS) became more and more common/popular, so now the other meaning (the one I remember but can't find reference to) has been forgotten.

So *sigh* the paragraph one stuff exists, but I guess it doesn't have a special name.

And here's an extra -- over at Fanfic Symposium, a reference to paragraph one stuff in this essay. You have to scroll down past the first 2/3rds of the essay to find the pertinent bit, subtitled #3 Same Actor Crossover Pairings (http://www.trickster.org/symposium/symp25.htm). The essay was written by

cereta, btw.

ps ... I'm here watching out for the next installment of "Shadowlands" which I've been enjoying lots. I've particularly enjoyed seeing a slightly more mature Andrew and Xander as friends. Good stuff. I think I followed tabaqui's rec.

Thanks so much for the URL to that essay and the meta-hunting on my behalf. I really appreciate it.

Thank you also for the kind words about Shadowlands. Your kind words are making me blush.

*blushes*

See? LOL

Wow, lol, you have the most interesting discussions here!! I don't really have that much to add, just wanted to let you know I popped in and went, oooh, a topic about sex with yourself. *dives in to read all the commments*

I believe that it does have a lot to do with the "Character A is HAWT! Character A squared is even HAWTER!!!!!", and also with the idea of exploring the different aspects of the characters that someone else mentioned (ie Willow & Vamp!Willow, nice!Xander & badass!Xander, etc.).

I also have seen fic that pairs two characters from different shows that are played by the same actor (I don't know if it's called actor fic, though, since it's not really about the actor), though I haven't been inclined to read any so I can't comment on the whyfores of it.

On a similar, but different *g*, note, I've also seen fic that pairs, for example, Spike with another character played by NB from a different show. So it's still the same actors, but different characters (or at least one different character), if you know what I mean. Not sure why you'd want to do that, but.... However, I have seen it used to eventually get your two characters together. Eg, Spike realizes after his fling with the Xander lookalike that he really wants Xander.

And now that I've moved off-topic, I'll stop right here. Ta! *g*

Wow, lol, you have the most interesting discussions here!!

Why thank you, madam. You really must tell my profs that I *am* doing something worthwhile with my time. LOL

On a similar, but different *g*, note, I've also seen fic that pairs, for example, Spike with another character played by NB from a different show. So it's still the same actors, but different characters (or at least one different character), if you know what I mean

Ooooh, interesting. I haven't seen that one either. Must look some up.

Erm....what else has NB done? The only other thing I've seen him in is commercials for what looked like a hideous movie about some girl going to the city and getting a makeover. LOL

Erm....what else has NB done?

LOL Sorry for the confusion. Nothing but the gay thing, Celeste in the City or whatever. I've mostly seen it in other fandoms, but was using BtVS as an example, since I didn't know if you'd recognize the names if I used the fandoms I've seen it in, like The Sentinel and due South. *g*

Ah, gotcha.

Well, durn. I was looking forward to renting some NB flicks. LOL

By the way, I heart your icon. Muchly. *g*

narcissism is certainly a key factor in my interest -- the desire for the most perfect intimacy and communion with one's like. I think this fantasy of the depth of understand one could have with one's double is definitely in evidence in my Janeway/Admiral Janeway fic -- but at the same time what fascinates me about doppelcest is the ways it would also be totally alienating to meet yourself. to be faced with a version of yourself whose interiority you have no access to, who is completely outside you. but as other commenters have suggested, doppelcest can be a compelling means of exploring various aspects of identity, of which narcissism is only one. hurrah!

I completely agree with what you've said.

And after re-reading the comments here and thinking about the issue further, I think one of the reasons I personally would find meeting my doppelganger alienating is that it would force me to really be honest with myself about who I am, ugly and scary parts included. I think it would make the denial we all have about certain aspects of ourselves impossible to maintain. I guess that's why doppelganger fic makes me slightly uncomfortable, although I do enjoy it when it's use to explore issues of identity rather than merely being PWP or something like that.

I have this plan to someday write an original, semi-autobiographical erotic doppelcest story. when I do it I'm sure it will prove a very interesting exercise in self-reflection...

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Been thinking thinky thoughts

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