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POV, that hateful bitch
One aspect of my writing that I continue to struggle with is POV. I have trouble remaining consistent with the POV I choose and have to proofread carefully for that mistake. Once I’ve chosen a POV, I have difficulty deciding how to include necessary information that the character from whose perspective I’ve chosen to write wouldn’t know. And then there’s the whole thing where I can’t seem to successfully manage any POV except third person limited.
My least favorite POV to read in fanfic is first person. First person feels too intimate for fanfic. As most of you know, fanfic for me is all about the self-insertion. I put myself in the place of one or more of the characters and so enjoy reading on two levels—one in which I am a voyeur/participant in a character’s body and the other more detached level on which I am appreciating plot and language and character insight, etc. When the fic is in first person, I feel like what I’m inhabiting is the author’s version of that character instead of the character. Which I know is an incredibly inarticulate way to say what I mean as of course all characters in fanfic are the products of their authors’ versions, regardless of POV. But first person feels too intimate, too close to me. I need the extra layer of distance that third person affords.
I usually don’t enjoy second person, mostly because I find it annoying and highly alienating to the reader. I also haven’t come across much fic written from this POV. However, I have read a handful of second person fics that I think work really well. For example: You Never Had it So by![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
mandysbitch: You don’t ask Sam why he’s remembering Reno in Texas. Ten minutes ago he asked if you remembered the time he caught you getting a blowjob from a waitress behind a diner in Arkansas. You told him ‘no’ because there are some parts of your shared history that do not warrant nostalgia. Sam finds it amusing now, but at the time you were both horrified. He was thirteen and he still looked up to you. You liked to think you sheltered him.
I generally write from third person limited, and find myself worrying to an extraordinary degree (like scary out of proportion degree) that I remain consistently within the POV I’ve chosen. For example, the last SPN fic I wrote was from Dean’s perspective and included this line originally: Sam notices the clench of Dean’s jaw and relents. “You just had a twenty-four hour bug. Your fever was pretty high, and that’s probably why you don’t remember anything.” On proofreading, I changed the line to read: Sam finally remembers his survival instincts, or else notices the Very Serious clench of Dean’s jaw, and relents. “You just had a twenty-four hour bug. Your fever was pretty high, and that’s probably why you don’t remember anything.” I’ve never back-buttoned a fic because of a lapse in POV, or really even noticed that being much of an issue in fic that I read period, but apparently I am terrified that there’s some flame wielding contingent of fic readers who will immolate me if I’m not slavishly consistent to POV.
I think the second-most difficult POV to write from is third person omniscient. It seems like that should be the easiest POV to write. I certainly enjoy reading it. There I am inside everyone’s heads equally and nobody can keep any secrets from me, no sirree. But when I attempt to write from that POV, I invariably default to third person limited without even realizing it. I find it really difficult to stay inside the heads of an entire cast of characters when I’m writing.
Close third person is my absolute favorite and, I believe, the most difficult POV to write from. This is the third person limited POV in which both the narrative, expositiony bits and the dialogue are all written in the POV character’s voice.ana_grrl is the queen of this POV for me. (From The End that Crowns Us: "I'll haunt your gorram ass, don't think otherwise," he says, giving Jayne his best hard look. And Jayne, he's never believed in ghosts, but he figures that Mal would do something like that. Just to be difficult. Once he's dead, once the oxygen wears out, once his body's blue and frozen and drifting along in Serenity. But Jayne still ain't going to promise not to mess with Inara, once they're off in the shuttle. Hell, he knows better than her what needs to be done. He should be in charge. So he ain't making promises to a man what's going to be dead soon enough.) I’d never been able to get this POV to work for me until recently when I started writing in SPN. I tried with Firefly fic but bombed, mostly because I could get Jayne’s dialogue right, but couldn’t stop the narrative bits from waxing poetic in words the big lug would never dream of using.
All of which leaves me with the following questions:
*What are your issues with POV?
*What about the occasional and subtle lapse of POV in fic? Eyeball bleeding deal breaker? Doesn’t even register? Somewhere in between?
*What are your favorite and least favorite POVs to write from? To read? Why?
*What are your reasons for choosing to write in a certain POV? Do your POV choices change depending on the fandom, the character you’re highlighting, the plot of the fic, or something else?
My least favorite POV to read in fanfic is first person. First person feels too intimate for fanfic. As most of you know, fanfic for me is all about the self-insertion. I put myself in the place of one or more of the characters and so enjoy reading on two levels—one in which I am a voyeur/participant in a character’s body and the other more detached level on which I am appreciating plot and language and character insight, etc. When the fic is in first person, I feel like what I’m inhabiting is the author’s version of that character instead of the character. Which I know is an incredibly inarticulate way to say what I mean as of course all characters in fanfic are the products of their authors’ versions, regardless of POV. But first person feels too intimate, too close to me. I need the extra layer of distance that third person affords.
I usually don’t enjoy second person, mostly because I find it annoying and highly alienating to the reader. I also haven’t come across much fic written from this POV. However, I have read a handful of second person fics that I think work really well. For example: You Never Had it So by
mandysbitch: You don’t ask Sam why he’s remembering Reno in Texas. Ten minutes ago he asked if you remembered the time he caught you getting a blowjob from a waitress behind a diner in Arkansas. You told him ‘no’ because there are some parts of your shared history that do not warrant nostalgia. Sam finds it amusing now, but at the time you were both horrified. He was thirteen and he still looked up to you. You liked to think you sheltered him. I generally write from third person limited, and find myself worrying to an extraordinary degree (like scary out of proportion degree) that I remain consistently within the POV I’ve chosen. For example, the last SPN fic I wrote was from Dean’s perspective and included this line originally: Sam notices the clench of Dean’s jaw and relents. “You just had a twenty-four hour bug. Your fever was pretty high, and that’s probably why you don’t remember anything.” On proofreading, I changed the line to read: Sam finally remembers his survival instincts, or else notices the Very Serious clench of Dean’s jaw, and relents. “You just had a twenty-four hour bug. Your fever was pretty high, and that’s probably why you don’t remember anything.” I’ve never back-buttoned a fic because of a lapse in POV, or really even noticed that being much of an issue in fic that I read period, but apparently I am terrified that there’s some flame wielding contingent of fic readers who will immolate me if I’m not slavishly consistent to POV.
I think the second-most difficult POV to write from is third person omniscient. It seems like that should be the easiest POV to write. I certainly enjoy reading it. There I am inside everyone’s heads equally and nobody can keep any secrets from me, no sirree. But when I attempt to write from that POV, I invariably default to third person limited without even realizing it. I find it really difficult to stay inside the heads of an entire cast of characters when I’m writing.
Close third person is my absolute favorite and, I believe, the most difficult POV to write from. This is the third person limited POV in which both the narrative, expositiony bits and the dialogue are all written in the POV character’s voice.
ana_grrl is the queen of this POV for me. (From The End that Crowns Us: "I'll haunt your gorram ass, don't think otherwise," he says, giving Jayne his best hard look. And Jayne, he's never believed in ghosts, but he figures that Mal would do something like that. Just to be difficult. Once he's dead, once the oxygen wears out, once his body's blue and frozen and drifting along in Serenity. But Jayne still ain't going to promise not to mess with Inara, once they're off in the shuttle. Hell, he knows better than her what needs to be done. He should be in charge. So he ain't making promises to a man what's going to be dead soon enough.) I’d never been able to get this POV to work for me until recently when I started writing in SPN. I tried with Firefly fic but bombed, mostly because I could get Jayne’s dialogue right, but couldn’t stop the narrative bits from waxing poetic in words the big lug would never dream of using.All of which leaves me with the following questions:
*What are your issues with POV?
*What about the occasional and subtle lapse of POV in fic? Eyeball bleeding deal breaker? Doesn’t even register? Somewhere in between?
*What are your favorite and least favorite POVs to write from? To read? Why?
*What are your reasons for choosing to write in a certain POV? Do your POV choices change depending on the fandom, the character you’re highlighting, the plot of the fic, or something else?
no subject
I agree that 2nd person almost always comes across as an annoying gimmick; in fact, even a really good 2nd person fic would probably make me look at the next one as "Hey, that's been done! It's OVER!"
Usually, as befits someone who occasionally uses "Little Trollope" as a nick, I'm all about the omniscience. I don't see what's wrong with changes in POV as long as it's clearly indicated whose head the reader is in at any given moment. Sort of like Muslim men being allowed to have up to 4 wives, but not more than they can take care of. However, no matter what I think I'm doing, I end up getting in touch with my Inner Playwright--I usually write nearly all dialogue. In which case, of course I try to make everybody talk like themselves, because they are, indeed, talking.
I'm actually kind of pleased with the infodump in my ill-fated tenyearsofbuffy fic, because the characters genuinely do not know the info to be dumped, and they get to snark at each other at the same time.
I once wrote a fic in tight third instead of first person (the "Kiss of the Spider Woman B7 fic)--originally, I wanted to make it first person but I needed it not to be first person because of the last line, which the character wouldn't have known or thought of.
I am much more likely to write first person for a voluble character than a tight-lipped one--I wrote almost no first-person Avon in more than five years of active B7 ficcing, because, Jesus, he hasn't put HIMSELF on the distribution list for most of that stuff, so why would he tell you?
FWIW I find that I'm more likely to be 3rd person omniscient in Firefly than in B7 because I'm trying to go wider in handling the whole ensemble, and it's hard enough looking at nine of 'em from the *outside*.
no subject
I know exactly what you mean! Thank god you introduced me to the vignette, because that way I can change the POV when the scene changes without fear of the flame. LOL I can't tell you how much time I spend wrangling with POV, changing what I've written or its structure trying to accommodate POV.
I'm all about the omniscience. I don't see what's wrong with changes in POV as long as it's clearly indicated whose head the reader is in at any given moment
*Nods*
And I think you do it very well. I just can't seem to make it work for myself. I feel like if I'm going to be in everyone's heads equally, I have to be in everyone's heads equally. But then somebody's always all wallflowered off in the corner, or somebody's getting too much of the limelight. And I usually only have one or two characters voices in any fandom down really well (thank gods there's only two of them in SPN LOL) so that hinders me as well.
Hamsters is Nice
But that can be very freeing, because if only 32 people are reading your story, you certainly aren't going to get 58 flames. I don't have stats on this or anything, but I suspect there's a certain "we're all in it together" feeling about small fandoms that raises the civility level somewhat.
I think Joss has been an example to all of us by techniques like "Sarah Michelle Gellar is hosting Saturday Night Live this week...let's turn Buffy into a rat" and "Book is guest-meditating at an Abbey" (which, in later seasons, could have been shown to actually be a cover for whateverthehell he was really up to). And there is no moment in a Firefly story when anybody you don't feel like writing couldn't be in the Infirmary recuperating from a bullet wound.
I bet one reason why Avon/Vila was the central pairing in Rilly Old Skool B7slash is that they're the two characters with the most distinctive voices--I mean, even if somebody had a perverse need to write Ganfics, it would be hard to get a feeling for his voice. And I never wrote much Jenna or Cally for similar reasons.
Re: Hamsters is Nice
Absolutely. I mean what did Jenna ever say except, "Right," and then brawl with Cally over who got to push the teleport button.