POV, that hateful bitch

[lunabee34]

One aspect of my writing that I continue to struggle with is POV. I have trouble remaining consistent with the POV I choose and have to proofread carefully for that mistake. Once I’ve chosen a POV, I have difficulty deciding how to include necessary information that the character from whose perspective I’ve chosen to write wouldn’t know. And then there’s the whole thing where I can’t seem to successfully manage any POV except third person limited.



My least favorite POV to read in fanfic is first person. First person feels too intimate for fanfic. As most of you know, fanfic for me is all about the self-insertion. I put myself in the place of one or more of the characters and so enjoy reading on two levels—one in which I am a voyeur/participant in a character’s body and the other more detached level on which I am appreciating plot and language and character insight, etc. When the fic is in first person, I feel like what I’m inhabiting is the author’s version of that character instead of the character. Which I know is an incredibly inarticulate way to say what I mean as of course all characters in fanfic are the products of their authors’ versions, regardless of POV. But first person feels too intimate, too close to me. I need the extra layer of distance that third person affords.

I usually don’t enjoy second person, mostly because I find it annoying and highly alienating to the reader. I also haven’t come across much fic written from this POV. However, I have read a handful of second person fics that I think work really well. For example: You Never Had it So by mandysbitch: You don’t ask Sam why he’s remembering Reno in Texas. Ten minutes ago he asked if you remembered the time he caught you getting a blowjob from a waitress behind a diner in Arkansas. You told him ‘no’ because there are some parts of your shared history that do not warrant nostalgia. Sam finds it amusing now, but at the time you were both horrified. He was thirteen and he still looked up to you. You liked to think you sheltered him.

I generally write from third person limited, and find myself worrying to an extraordinary degree (like scary out of proportion degree) that I remain consistently within the POV I’ve chosen. For example, the last SPN fic I wrote was from Dean’s perspective and included this line originally: Sam notices the clench of Dean’s jaw and relents. “You just had a twenty-four hour bug. Your fever was pretty high, and that’s probably why you don’t remember anything.” On proofreading, I changed the line to read: Sam finally remembers his survival instincts, or else notices the Very Serious clench of Dean’s jaw, and relents. “You just had a twenty-four hour bug. Your fever was pretty high, and that’s probably why you don’t remember anything.” I’ve never back-buttoned a fic because of a lapse in POV, or really even noticed that being much of an issue in fic that I read period, but apparently I am terrified that there’s some flame wielding contingent of fic readers who will immolate me if I’m not slavishly consistent to POV.

I think the second-most difficult POV to write from is third person omniscient. It seems like that should be the easiest POV to write. I certainly enjoy reading it. There I am inside everyone’s heads equally and nobody can keep any secrets from me, no sirree. But when I attempt to write from that POV, I invariably default to third person limited without even realizing it. I find it really difficult to stay inside the heads of an entire cast of characters when I’m writing.

Close third person is my absolute favorite and, I believe, the most difficult POV to write from. This is the third person limited POV in which both the narrative, expositiony bits and the dialogue are all written in the POV character’s voice. ana_grrl is the queen of this POV for me. (From The End that Crowns Us: "I'll haunt your gorram ass, don't think otherwise," he says, giving Jayne his best hard look. And Jayne, he's never believed in ghosts, but he figures that Mal would do something like that. Just to be difficult. Once he's dead, once the oxygen wears out, once his body's blue and frozen and drifting along in Serenity. But Jayne still ain't going to promise not to mess with Inara, once they're off in the shuttle. Hell, he knows better than her what needs to be done. He should be in charge. So he ain't making promises to a man what's going to be dead soon enough.) I’d never been able to get this POV to work for me until recently when I started writing in SPN. I tried with Firefly fic but bombed, mostly because I could get Jayne’s dialogue right, but couldn’t stop the narrative bits from waxing poetic in words the big lug would never dream of using.



All of which leaves me with the following questions:

*What are your issues with POV?
*What about the occasional and subtle lapse of POV in fic? Eyeball bleeding deal breaker? Doesn’t even register? Somewhere in between?
*What are your favorite and least favorite POVs to write from? To read? Why?
*What are your reasons for choosing to write in a certain POV? Do your POV choices change depending on the fandom, the character you’re highlighting, the plot of the fic, or something else?

Comments

[shannon730.livejournal.com]

I really hate second person but I don't see it too often outside of horrible Marysue fics. Other than that, if it's written well I'm not that picky.

That said, I rarely read first person fic because it's usually not well written. It always seems like most authors can't consistently stay in first person. If you slide a little out of the correct POV in third person limited it may go unnoticed, you slide from first to third person it's obvious. I swear I once read (or started to anyway) a fic that within 2 paragraphs had managed to cover first, second, and third person limited.

I prefer to write in third person limited. Although I tend to use 2 characters in a lot of fics, rather than one, but I find it easier to write than omniscient. I do write omniscient occasionally if I can't find a way to cover the info I need with limited. I wrote one first person fic many years ago (it was something like the 3rd fic I wrote and it was very popular to write that way at the time) it was a lot of work though. I spent so much time stressing over if I had the voice right and if I stayed in first person that I never repeated it.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

I swear I once read (or started to anyway) a fic that within 2 paragraphs had managed to cover first, second, and third person limited.

Wow. That sounds like a treat.

it was very popular to write that way at the time

It's interesting that you say that. So much of what we do in fandom is viral (Meme!), and I wonder if every year or so there's a rash of first person fics or second person fics because someone wrote a really good one and that POV was popular for awhile.

[executrix.livejournal.com]

Ahahaha! I worked a little bit yesterday on a Firefly fic that I can't finish because I can't think of any way for it NOT to shift from Simon's POV to Inara's.

I agree that 2nd person almost always comes across as an annoying gimmick; in fact, even a really good 2nd person fic would probably make me look at the next one as "Hey, that's been done! It's OVER!"

Usually, as befits someone who occasionally uses "Little Trollope" as a nick, I'm all about the omniscience. I don't see what's wrong with changes in POV as long as it's clearly indicated whose head the reader is in at any given moment. Sort of like Muslim men being allowed to have up to 4 wives, but not more than they can take care of. However, no matter what I think I'm doing, I end up getting in touch with my Inner Playwright--I usually write nearly all dialogue. In which case, of course I try to make everybody talk like themselves, because they are, indeed, talking.

I'm actually kind of pleased with the infodump in my ill-fated tenyearsofbuffy fic, because the characters genuinely do not know the info to be dumped, and they get to snark at each other at the same time.

I once wrote a fic in tight third instead of first person (the "Kiss of the Spider Woman B7 fic)--originally, I wanted to make it first person but I needed it not to be first person because of the last line, which the character wouldn't have known or thought of.

I am much more likely to write first person for a voluble character than a tight-lipped one--I wrote almost no first-person Avon in more than five years of active B7 ficcing, because, Jesus, he hasn't put HIMSELF on the distribution list for most of that stuff, so why would he tell you?

FWIW I find that I'm more likely to be 3rd person omniscient in Firefly than in B7 because I'm trying to go wider in handling the whole ensemble, and it's hard enough looking at nine of 'em from the *outside*.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Ahahaha! I worked a little bit yesterday on a Firefly fic that I can't finish because I can't think of any way for it NOT to shift from Simon's POV to Inara's.

I know exactly what you mean! Thank god you introduced me to the vignette, because that way I can change the POV when the scene changes without fear of the flame. LOL I can't tell you how much time I spend wrangling with POV, changing what I've written or its structure trying to accommodate POV.

I'm all about the omniscience. I don't see what's wrong with changes in POV as long as it's clearly indicated whose head the reader is in at any given moment

*Nods*

And I think you do it very well. I just can't seem to make it work for myself. I feel like if I'm going to be in everyone's heads equally, I have to be in everyone's heads equally. But then somebody's always all wallflowered off in the corner, or somebody's getting too much of the limelight. And I usually only have one or two characters voices in any fandom down really well (thank gods there's only two of them in SPN LOL) so that hinders me as well.

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

Huh. I sometimes switch tense accidentally while writing a story, but not usually POV.

I usually write in 3rd person omniscient 'cause I wanna be able to include any and all information I deem relevant/interesting, but I don't think it necessitates being in all the characters' heads all the time.

Sometimes I find I'm doing more of a 3rd person limited (though the current WIP that comes to mind is River-centric, so that's not really a "limited" POV) and I feel like there have been times I have consciously attempted some version of third person limited for a particular fic for inarticulable stylistic reasons.

Unless it were a highly stylized POV presentation, I suspect I wouldn't notice slip from 3rd-limited to 3rd-omni.

Honestly, I couldn't say for certain what kind of 3rd person any given fic I've written is without going back and rereading it; it's not something I really think about.

I find 1st person uncomfortable both to write and to read when it comes to fanfic. I think because I'm using to engaging with the source texts which are obviously told in some variety of 3rd person (even if the show often utilizes protagonist voiceovers). I like 2nd person sometimes (both reading and writing).

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

but I don't think it necessitates being in all the characters' heads all the time.

Maybe that's my problem with it. I'm trying to give everybody equal screen time, so to speak, when that's not really an issue.

Unless it were a highly stylized POV presentation, I suspect I wouldn't notice slip from 3rd-limited to 3rd-omni.

That's my take as well, and yet in my own writing, it's probably the major thing that worries me, even more than voice and the everpresent lure of Purple Prose. LOL

I think because I'm using to engaging with the source texts which are obviously told in some variety of 3rd person

I think that's another dimension of my discomfort as well.

[ana-grrl.livejournal.com]

Cool questions/thoughts :D

I can't stand first person either! I just can't read it, even if I like the author's other stuff. It's too intimate, and the voices never sound true to me. I don't think I've ever tried writing from a first person POV. It has never occurred to me to try it.

Second person POV I can sometimes read, but again, rarely. I did write it once (well, twice. well, three times if you count the story I never finished/posted), but only from the perspective of an original character - the reason I tried doing it was that I was playing with the idea that it might be interesting to see the Firefly crew from an outsider's perspective, and I also wanted that outsider to be anonymous. It was fun, but I don't think I've ever done it again.

(Incidentally, I think that was the only time I wrote an original character, too - other than a bit character)

Third person - yep! That's what I like - to read and to write. But I wish I could write third person omniscient. I can't quite manage it - the only time I've been able to is when I've done cracked out fairy tales (SG-1 fandom). Otherwise I just get tangled up and confused and stuck.

I find it hard to follow POV lapses in fic (major lapses - like third-first or third-second) - but more frustrating to me are rapid changes in the character POV (I don't know if what I just wrote makes sense). I don't like it when people flip-flop randomly from third person close to third person close with different characters. That tends to throw me out of a story, and I often stop reading it. There are exceptions, of course, but more often than not, it doesn't work for me.

Also - tenses. I've read that a lot of people can't stand reading present-tense fic; that they prefer past tense. I used to write a lot of past-tense third person POV fic, but somewhere along the line I switched to present tense, and I really don't understand why. It just seems more immediate to me. I also like reading present-tense fic, although past-tense I enjoy reading equally.

And - thanks *blush* :D

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

the voices never sound true to me

They don't to me, either. Even when they *are*, you know? Even when the writer's got all the voice quirks and everything down, when the whole thing's in first person, it just throws me.

I just recently wrote my first OC as well, and it was a super weird experience. My friend Emily wanted me to write some het for SPN, but neither of us have been real crazy about the gals they've had guest star. So I just made up an OC, which made me fear that probably very few people would read it (which is true LOL). Even though I think the fic has some neat Dean characterization stuff going on it, people see that OC tag and they're not interested. Myself included many times.

Yeah, tenses. I've found that now I generally want to write in present tense, but I enjoy reading present and past equally.

from metafandom

[morganmuffle]

In contrast to most of the comments above I LOVE second person fics and would love first person pov if I could find enough decent examples of it.

I suppose that's one of the big problems though. When you're reading second or first person pov you really need to get onboard with the writer's view of any given character and the slightest thing can knock you out of it so there isn't a lot of room for error. Much as in third person closed I suppose though that's not a pov I've come across very often.

Also I find I can't read anything very long in second or first person pov, a ficlet or a drabble is fine but there is some effort involved in being inside a character's head and a full length chaptered fic might well drive me crazy. Plus it offers so many more opportunities to accidentally switch pov.

Thinking as I type I've realised that if I'm just looking for entertainment then I want some variation on third person but I'm very interested in reading more unconvetional texts in and out of fandom so when that's what I'm in the mood for first person, second person, letter fics etc etc. are really brilliant.

Re: from metafandom

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

When you're reading second or first person pov you really need to get onboard with the writer's view of any given character and the slightest thing can knock you out of it so there isn't a lot of room for error.

Absolutely.

I'm very interested in reading more unconvetional texts in and out of fandom

*nods*

I find that I enjoy fics that play with narrative structure more than fics that play around with POV.

Fascinating anwers; thanks.

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

If I read a fic with POV problems, however minor, I definitely notice it, but just one slip is not a dealbreaker. I might grumble as I'm reading and wish the editor had caught it. If there's more than one I'll probably note it in my review, and I doubt I'd rec anything that had more than one or two minor POV errors.

In terms of both reading and writing, I prefer a really tight 3rd person. I don't want any omniscient stuff most of the time (usually its only purpose is so that the author can blather on for paragraphs about the scenery or the drapes, which bores me to hell to begin with; description of the surroundings is not for me).

When I was in Vampire Chronicles fandom, though, about half of my fics were first person, as were most of the other fics in the fandom. The books themselves were written in first person, so it felt like the most natural POV to use, especially if you were writing Louis or Lestat POV. But since then I think it's been all third...

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

And you get a big ole thanks for expanding my vocabulary with with "close 3rd person.) :)

usually its only purpose is so that the author can blather on for paragraphs about the scenery or the drapes, which bores me to hell to begin with; description of the surroundings is not for me

I agree. With some exceptions, I don't come to fanfic for description. I have to read enough Dickens in real life without getting it in fandom. LOL I generally prefer fic that concentrates on dialogue and action rather than setting.

The books themselves were written in first person

That makes sense to me. If the source material is already in first person, I don't think I would be alienated by fanfic in first person. It wouldn't be so much the ficcer's "I" as the canonical "I."

here via METAFANDOM [Part One]

[faith-chaos.livejournal.com]

* My issues with POV are pretty much unexistent. In fact I didn't even know exactly what POV stood for, in fanfic, till I started writing BtVS fic, before that it was just the classical first, second, third person or Witness, Protagonist, Omnipresent. Pretty simple. Then this friend of mine introduced me to limited POV, and I found it pretty neat, because it was, more or less so, the style I'd been looking for. I love being able to tell I story, in third person, limiting myself to tell things the way a certain character sees them. I am, apparently, kinda good with it which means that sometimes means I get reviews like: "Buffy's delusional for thinking that! Can't she tell Faith doesn't really mean what she says?!?!?!?!" And my answer's always no, because she really CAN'T tell Faith would not mean it, because she's not a mind reader. So this is how it goes, I don't have a lot of problems with writing from a determined character's POV, but sometimes I take it too far I guess.

* Sometimes when I'm distracted I do jump from one character to the other, but because I'm obsessive bout grammar and spelling and I triple check my stories, I almost always catch it and then, if I really, really need the imput of the second character's perspective, then I change the style of the entire thing, to one that's not limited to just one character's view of things.

* I have this thing, ok, where I can totally get into a caracter's POV but not when it regards itself. It's a bit tricky. If I'm writing a story about Faith, it's more likely that most of it will be written from a second character's POV. If I'm writing a story about Buffy, same deal. Funny thing is that I can write both of those characters in different situations and use them as the pseudo-narrative voice of the story, but writing form a specific character's POV regarding itself just doesn't come naturally most of the time. I think I don't trust characters, or people in general, to be very accurate when it comes to self reflection, and if I want to write a story about a spoiled, stubborn, sometimes condesending character, who's also good, brave, caring and whatnot, I don't trust my skills enough to truly convey all the aspects of the character I'm trying to write about if I'm doing so from their POV's.

On the other hand, I love close third person. It flows pretty naturally [with certain characters], which, yay, because I've heard it's not uncommon for people to struggle with this one. The hardest ever POV for me to write is First person, mostly for the reason presented above. I don't trust a character to be completely accurate when it comes to itself, everyone has a degree of self delusion when it comes to themselves, right? Plus I think, in my case, it would be lazy writing. Omniscient POV is easy. Maybe because I started out as a fiction writer, and because the subtleties of my first language are great in the way that I feel totally familiar with this one, but it's not hard to be impartial and to just tell a story. I find this one to be maybe the easiest POV of all. But of course, in fictionland, people like the close or distant third person form better and I guess I am a push over.

Re: here via METAFANDOM [Part One]

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

I am very much on board with what you're saying about the third person limited narrator as an unreliable one. I think that a flawed narrator and one who doesn't have all the information (and so perhaps misunderstand or misinterprets what's going on around him/her) is probably the narrator that interests me most.

I wish I found omniscient as easy to write as you and others that have commented. I don't know why it trips me up so--I think it's just really difficult for me to keep a cast of voices separate in my head or something.

here via METAFANDOM [Part Two]

[faith-chaos.livejournal.com]

* Ah! Tricky question. It depends on which story I wanna tell, I guess. Some stories I have to write in Second because otherwise they just don't work. There's something special about Second Person POV. You can say so much with it... like, this, for example: "And you felt safe, didn't you? As if he was gonna shiled you from the world and keep you close to him forever and ever and all that bull you always thought fairy tales were all about. You never dreamed you could have it, but now it's here and you know, from the way he looks at you and the strong hands around your waist, that he's never gonna let you go. He wants to protect you from the world, has told you so himself, but you can't help but ask yourself, who's gonna protect you from him?" See, with that last question, the story goes to a different level. You can go places with Second Person POV. I've only ever done it twice myself cause I don't think I could sustain it for long. But some people can, and I love to read it.

Now First Person I've only used once, and that's because someone reviewed one of my stories saying I had a very bad Xander voice and I got all kinds of paranoid about it so I decided to write a short fic in Xander's POV, using First person. I don't like First Person a lot, because, like I said, it's very limiting.

This was fun! I liked it lots and it did make me think lots, so thanks.

Re: here via METAFANDOM [Part Two]

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Thanks for answering in such detail. It's really fascinating to see how everyone's preferences differ and where many of us seem to feel the same.

Regarding second person, I think it can be a successful method of storytelling, but for me it's very alienating to the reader. I think it creates a sense of distance between the story and the reader. For some stories that sense of alienation works really well. I think it would work less well for say, something porny.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

Oh, man, POV. My most troubling issue lately is whose to write from. Most of my stories come with POV and tense attached - I "hear" the story in Dean's voice, or know it *has* to be in River's POV, etc. - but sometimes I just have the *idea* and can think of two or three different ways to tell it; then it becomes a matter of trying it out and seeing which fits, or stalling out before I even start because I can't decide.

I do find breaks in POV jarring, if only because my default reading/writing setting is third limited, and I've had it beaten into me by betas not to change POV in the middle of a scene, because it gets confusing, and it also breaks intimacy and flow. I will let one or two instances slip, but if it happens consistently in a story, or is a certain type of break (the really horrid kind where the person is describing themselves - "Dean's lambent green eyes glistened with a jewel-like sheen of tears as he watched Sam walk away and realized he might never see his brother again." or "Eowyn's hair glinted like molten gold in the moonlight as she waited for Faramir to come to her." - those are usually clear signs of a new writer) I'll likely back out of it in annoyance.

Third omniscient is hard, and I find it off-putting except in the hands of a really good author; too often it slips into multiple third limited without any delineation of who is actually telling the story, which is problematic for me, because then I spend time going, "but how did Y *know* what X was thinking?"

I have written in first person on rare occasion, but I really dislike it in fanfic - 1. it almost never sounds like the character as I hear him or her; 2. it becomes a crutch for the author, especially if they always write in first person from the same character's POV; 3. it tends to sound more like the author than the character.

Second person is...I've written successfully from second person POV once or twice, and I've seen it said that it's meant to foster intimacy, putting the reader right there in the character's shoes, but I feel it's a *distancing* technique on the part of the character. I think of it as a character telling a story, and saying "you" instead of "me" - so I think it only works with certain characters - Remus or Snape or Bruce Wayne - men who are very good at compartmentalizing in some ways - or certain situations that might be too traumatic for the character to relate in first or close third - River, perhaps.

Most of the time, badly written second person reads like a "Choose Your Own Adventure" story, and that's just not what I'm looking for. And sometimes it just feels like the author is saying, "Hey look at me! Look how clever I am!" Which also happens sometimes with other stylistic experiments which in the end don't feel necessary to the telling of the story.

I think I manage a good, tight, in character third person POV most of the time - most especially from Mal's POV for some reason - I don't know why it's so easy for me to slip into his head, but it is, and I can write for days in his voice without slipping. I have a harder time with characters who are less prone to the sort of constant questioning - I hesitate to call what Mal does navel-gazing, but I do think he's prone to overthinking, and characters like that - Remus, Sam Winchester, etc. - are the best kinds to use as narrators. Writing from Zoe's POV, for whom action follows thought like breathing - not that she's not thoughtful, but that she's not going to analyse herself into paralysis, like Mal might - or Dean, who is going to avoid thinking about a lot of stuff if he can possibly help it, or Danny Ocean, who is always running a con on multiple layers, even inside his own head - those are the characters from whose POVs I find difficult to write, because opportunities for rumination and emotional exposition are nearly nil, and you have to express all that stuff in action, especially with someone like Dean or Danny, who is going to consistently conceal his actual feelings when speaking. A lot of that stuff is great in visual media, where you can see the clench of a jaw or fist, the slump of the shoulders straightening, the quick, furtive glance away before the not-quite meeting of someone else's gaze, but those are harder for me to convey in writing.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

too often it slips into multiple third limited without any delineation of who is actually telling the story

This is one of the problems I run into when I try to write from that POV.

I've seen it said that it's meant to foster intimacy, putting the reader right there in the character's shoes, but I feel it's a *distancing* technique on the part of the character.

I agree with you there. I've always felt alienated from the piece when it's written in second person. My students will sometimes say of a thing that's written in second person that it's more universal, that the "you" let's the reader put herself in the story. But I just feel left out--"you" feels too big to me most of the time. You who? You everybody? LOL Because there is this ambiguity to "you," I feel much more distant from the character I'm reading about.

It's interesting what you say about the kinds of characters that lend themselves more easily to narration. I think one of the reasons that Xander ends up narrating a lot of Buffyverse fic is that he's rather verbose and not so big on the concealing of his emotions. I like fic very much that manages to get inside one of those characters who is tightly emotionally reined (like Dean) and convincingly show me what that character is thinking--the thought behind the clenched jaw. (And incidentally, man can Jensen Ackles clench a jaw something fierce)

[that_mireille]

(Here via metafandom):

*What about the occasional and subtle lapse of POV in fic? Eyeball bleeding deal breaker? Doesn’t even register? Somewhere in between?

Something in between. If it's occasional and subtle, it registers, but it's no worse than the occasional typo--it happens; nobody's perfect. If it's frequent and glaring, it's a deal-breaker. (If I'm beta-reading, all bets are off, and I will leave big red notes about the POV shifts, often with punctuation abuse: PICK A POV!!!!! (but then, the person I beta for most often is someone I know very well--I wouldn't be quite that emphatic to a stranger. ;) )

*What are your favorite and least favorite POVs to write from? To read? Why?

Writing: My favorite is a very close third-person. With particular characters who have very distinctive speaking styles, in fact, I find it hard *not* to write in close-third person. With others, I tend more toward a more distant third-person limited (though again, without that super-distinctive speaking style, it can be hard to tell). I've never thought of those as different POVs, though; I consider them both third-person limited, and the voice in the narrative passages to be a stylistic choice.

My least favorite would be first-person. I don't like writing it (either in fanfic or original fic).

Reading: I still prefer third-person limited. In original fic, I don't mind first-person at all; but in fanfic, it is my least favorite choice--unless it's a story written by an author I trust, or a story that requires it (an epistolary fic, for example), I don't read first-person fic. Second-person is off-putting as a rule, but when it's done *well,* it can be really effective, especially in something quite short.

*What are your reasons for choosing to write in a certain POV? Do your POV choices change depending on the fandom, the character you’re highlighting, the plot of the fic, or something else?

I can really only think of one time I didn't write in third-person limited, and that was a conscious stylistic choice. The entire story was built around a fortune-cookie fortune I got that read, "Suppose you can get what you want," and I used second-person for that. I think it worked, but I'm in no hurry to try it again.

But since you're considering close third-person to be a different POV to third-person limited... it does depend on character. There are certain characters I write that really *demand* of me that everything be expressed in their voice. Xander Harris is one of them. If I need a more detached POV for the narrative, I probably won't choose to write Xander's POV. (In fact, in a longer story that I'm working on, where there are multiple POVs (in different scenes), that's one of the reasons I choose to use/not use Xander's POV for a particular scene.)

In a shorter story, I tend to pick one POV and stay with it. In a longer story, I may opt for different POVs in different scenes (I stick with one POV per scene, generally), and I base it, a great deal, on "whose perceptions would add the most to this scene?" Does someone have knowledge they're not going to reveal out loud, but that the reader needs? Whose thoughts would be the most helpful in getting across what I'm trying to say? And sometimes, whose POV would avoid the most clunky dialogue where one character has to explain things to another at great length when there's no reason for him to even mention it, because the reader needs to know it?

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Ooooh, you brought up something I should've mentioned in my post: epistolary fic. I don't mind first person in those, either. Somehow, when it's interspersed with third person narration, small chunks of first person don't read off to me. (Particularly in a fandom where we've seen the characters write letters to each other or make diary entries; I'm thinking HP here for a good example)

What is it about Xander's character that you think demands a close third person limited POV in your fic? I speculated above to musesfool that one of the reasons that Xander ends up narrating so much of Buffyfic is that he's not as emotionally guarded as, say, Angel, or Lindsay.

[poisonavery.livejournal.com]

1) My issues with POV, writing-wise, usually boils down to something :
a) being in 3rd-person limited and then, DAMN, I have this awesome idea/line I could put in, but it'd be from another character's POV, thus destroying that limited thing. So usually, I grin and bear it and file the general idea way, and hopefully it'll pop up in another fic that I go about attempting!
b) this isn't really different POV so much as it is, that, in 3rd person POV, at least for me, sometimes when I write, I end up changing tense each time I sit down to write and don't really realize it. (commas ahoy!, there)

2) I honestly don't think I'm fic-savvy enough to realize lapses between POV! How embarassing. :X


3&4) Personally, I don't like anything in first-person that is anything longer than a drabble. Mostly because it seems so...like you're thrust into it. You don't get this gradual connection with the character.

I think I tend to write, or at least tend to want to write 2nd person if it's a character (or, in my fandom, a player) that is well-known/established. And that probably has a lot to do with my style of writing. 2nd-person has a more informal feel. But I've never written anything longer than a one-shot in 2nd person, so I don't know how well my style + 2nd person would translate into a novella/novel-length fic vs. my style + 3rd person limited, you know?
I do think that 2nd person can be very very effective in a long fic, though, if done right, but that depends on the plot too.
And, I have to say here, my 3rd-person limited is probably more of a 3rd-person limited and the 3rd-person closed that you're talking about. In that, the tone is more tailored to the character, but not exactly the vocabulary?

I sort of...when I get an idea concerning a particular player or pairing, I usually know right away what POV it'll be. For example, say I get an idea about the Florida Marlins. Now, they're a team filled with rookies, guys no one has any idea about. And I want readers to be able to connect with them, which is why when I start writing in my head, I think out scenes using "Dan did this" or "Scott said that" instead of "you"; I don't presume that anybody else knows anything about these guys (because they don't have a very large fanbase anyway), and if someone stumbles along the fic, it's because they're familiar with something else I wrote as opposed to actually looking for fic about the Marlins.
But if it were to be about, say, Derek Jeter & Alex Rodriguez, two very popular famous players that are on magazines everywhere and talked about on ESPN so much that even people who don't like them know pretty much everything about them? Well, I figure that if someone's clicking on a fic written about them, they are doing so because they know about them already, not because they want to get to know about them. So using 2nd person isn't really a problem.

Also, I've never thought about it until now, as I'm writing this, but maybe past tense v. present tense has to do with what POV you go for! And, in my experience, I write angsty fics in 2nd, and more fluffy fics in 3rd. Hmmm. *ponders the meaning of this.*

Excuse any redundancy. xD

I welcome redundancy :)

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

being in 3rd-person limited and then, DAMN, I have this awesome idea/line I could put in, but it'd be from another character's POV, thus destroying that limited thing.

Yes! I often find myself copiously rewriting or even changing structure (let's say to vignettes, where I can comfortably change POV from section to section) to accommodate the info.

You don't get this gradual connection with the character.

Oooh, that's an interesting way of putting it.

And, I have to say here, my 3rd-person limited is probably more of a 3rd-person limited and the 3rd-person closed that you're talking about. In that, the tone is more tailored to the character, but not exactly the vocabulary?

In third person limited, you have a traditional third person narrator except that the narration doesn't reveal any information that the POV character wouldn't know or have access to. Close third person is the same as third person limited except that everything is rendered in the character's voice, not just that character's dialogue. It's as if we're getting a running third person commentary from inside that character's head. So, for instance, if Derek Jeter and his dad are sitting down to dinner, third person limited might say, Derek and his dad ate dinner in silence. Derek wondered what was wrong and close third person might read, Dad was really quiet at dinner and Derek wondered what was wrong. That's like the most shit-tacular example, ever, LOL but hopefully you can see what I mean.

via metafandom

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

I am okay with first and second person in very specific contexts if they're done really well (one of my favorite pro genres, preternatural thrillers, tends to be first person, and while I'd love to see someone write in third, I've had to get used to it). I hate third person omniscient. The genres I read in require a limited viewpoint to maintain mystery and tension and plot, and I find it annoying to jump around between different characters' heads. Most of the time I see third person omniscient handled really badly, too.

Third person limited is my favorite to read and the most natural for me to write. It has more distance than first person and the genre associations (chicklit and teenage girl fiction) don't distract me as much, and it's great for having an unreliable narrator and for preserving plot mystery. Very subtle POV lapses won't bug me, but serious ones will. Guy Gavriel Kay may be able to break this rule (he breaks a lot) without incurring my irritation, but most writers (fan and pro) can't.

I almost always write in third person limited, very rarely in second or first for a specific story. Which character's POV is very much on a case-by-case basis and not something I can generalize about. There are certainly a few characters I try to avoid writing as viewpoint characters because I find their 'style' hard to get down, of course.

Re: via metafandom

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

one of my favorite pro genres, preternatural thrillers, tends to be first person

That's a good point. What we read in profic must necessarily inform our fanfic choices.

The genres I read in require a limited viewpoint to maintain mystery and tension and plot

That's another really excellent point. I think narrative tension is best maintained from a limited viewpoint as well.

Thanks for such a thoughtful answer. :)

[scatteredgray.livejournal.com]

I don't like first person, not because its too intimate, but because the author rarely gives us a good reason for the charachter to be telling us this stuff.

When a charachter tells us what clothes he put on and in what order, it just comes off as kind of narcissistic (of the charachter) to me, unless theres a good reason he/she would be telling anyone, let alone telling a whole story about it.

And thats not even getting into smut fic.

(Exceptions exist, of course)

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

I don't like first person, not because its too intimate, but because the author rarely gives us a good reason for the charachter to be telling us this stuff.

When a charachter tells us what clothes he put on and in what order, it just comes off as kind of narcissistic (of the charachter) to me, unless theres a good reason he/she would be telling anyone, let alone telling a whole story about it.

Yes. Excellent point. There's an artificiality about a character describing herself or certain actions she's taking that's often hard to overcome in first person fic.