Much Ado About Riley

[lunabee34]

I've been thinking a good deal about Riley's character and his place in slash fandom after last week's club_joss discussion of trepkos's "Moonstruck I." He's so often cast as the villain of a Spander or Spangel piece (and not just the villain, but the Villian LOL), that I had never read a slash story in which Riley played a positive role until emella pointed me to eliade's Reprise.

Many of the Buffyverse fandom classics (I'm thinking jameschick's Quantum Xander and Lazuli's Repossession) are built around the premise that Riley is really a huge, evil sadist. And I'm not saying that's wrong; I enjoyed reading both those stories very much. I think that pushing the boundaries of characterization is really what fanfic is about. For this same reason, I enjoy stories that explore Angelus equally as well as those that focus on Angel. One thing I think the Buffyverse hammers home is that we all have an inner Angelus just waiting to come out to play.

When I was watching the show, I never really felt very strongly about Riley's character; I don't like the actor all that much. He's never really pushed my buttons. But I certainly didn't hate him or anything. What I found after reading so much fanfic that cast him in a negative role is that I started to hate Riley's character unreasonably. When I found Reprise, I had to step back and think, "Now why do I hate Riley so much? He's really kinda goofy and noble." LOL

After that, I began to enjoy Riley more. I don't like Marc Blucas's execution of the character; that doesn't mean that the character isn't really complex and fascinating (guy living a double life, gives it all up for what's right, etc).

So, after that long-winded intro:
1. Riley as the slash bad guy
2. fanfic affecting character perception

Discuss!

Comments

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

I didn't read this week's club_joss 'cause it was long and I was busy, but I was intrigued by the concept.

To your statement "I had never read a slash story in which Riley played a positive role until" my immediate thought was "Lar's Rainmaker series?" I've read little Riley fic, but obsessedmuch's "Rainmaker" series [here (http://biblioteque.obsessedmuch.net/larfic.php)] is Riley/Lindsey and quite lovely.

My second thought was, "Spander/Spangel pieces have *Riley* as a villain?" I could understand writers of those pairings villifying *Buffy* but why Riley? Though I suppose if you're going the hurt/comfort route, Riley's handy as a tool of the Initiative.

I honestly don't read all that much m/m slash (and I'm still waiting for my payment to process so I'm currently website-less and thus can't be obsessive and go through my recs) but I dislike the villifying of any canon character (unless it's done in an organic way like exploring morally grey Wesley or something) and certainly don't appreciate the bashing of any character whether it's incidental to the romance or being used as a weak "must. dissolve. canon. romance." thing.

As a reader of Spike/Buffy I'm used to encountering fic!Riley in the position of "He is, in some way or another, not good enough for Buffy, so she turns to Spike" but I think that can be done in a way that's very true to canon/character since I think the Spike/Buffy relationship was a very natural exploration of -- among other things -- Buffy's darkness (and yes, it can be argued that it's also a natural outgrowth of her inability to have a functional relationship with side arguments about whether she in fact *seeks out* relationships that won't work).

I wasn't all that into Riley or the Buffy/Riley pairing when S4 first aired (and dude, in the campus bookstore when we first meet him? I totally thought the show was going in a Willow/Riley direction) but I defend the arc as showing Buffy's attempt to have a "normal" life/boyfriend and how in fact the relationship only works because Riley *isn't* "normal" and the main reason the relationship deteriorates is because she has so much else going on in her life (her mother dying, Key!Dawn) and isn't good at letting people in. (And I also defend the complexity of Riley's character, which I think gets overshadowed by his wholesome appearance and Spike's "Captain Cardboard" comments.)

Oh, and in response to Point 2, yeah, fanfic can totally affect audience perception of characters (and relationships) though I find that usually it gives me avenues into *liking* a character or relationship because I'm reading stuff by an author who loves said character/relationship and is trying to sell it.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Ooooh, thanks for the rec. I'll definitely be checking that out.

I dislike the villifying of any canon character (unless it's done in an organic way like exploring morally grey Wesley or something

I agree, especially since when a writer does so, it tends to run counter to canonical portrayals of that character. That being said, I'm not sure that what these writers are doing with Riley is always character bashing. Something in that character has made a lot of people want to put him in a sadistic role. I don't know if it's for the reasons that tabaqui suggests, or if it is more of a case that once the definitive Riley is a sadist story was written, it became a lot of fanfic readers' personal fanon and took off that way.

yeah, fanfic can totally affect audience perception of characters (and relationships) though I find that usually it gives me avenues into *liking* a character or relationship because I'm reading stuff by an author who loves said character/relationship and is trying to sell it.

*nods vigorously*

In my case, I was bored to tears by Angel's character until I began reading fanfic that fleshed his character out. Now, when I watch those performances of DB's that used to make me yawn, they seem more nuanced and interesting to me because I have this history of fanfic reading behind the viewing.

[shannon730.livejournal.com]

You know, I've never really read any Riley fanfic and I don't like him. I did at first, and it took me forever to figure out what changed. Why I suddenly just hated him. Then a few months ago I was watching the episode (can't remember the title at the moment) when Oz came back in Season 4, and I realized that was what changed.

Fairly early in the episode he was talking to Buffy about his shock that Willow would date Oz. He thought she was smarter/better than that. That he couldn't believe Willow would stoop to dating a "monster." I know that by the end of the episode he had rescinded the comments but that scene sort stuck in my mind, I think. I like Oz and never considered him one of the monsters.

Don't know about Riley being the slash bad guy because I'd have to read a lot more slash than I do to judge that, but he's protrayed that way in het too. Oddly, in a lot of Willow fic. I've seen more fic than I care to where Riley rapes Willow. I don't understand the trend, as much as I dislike the character it doesn't fit into canon at all. But then either does Buffy is always a total bitch.

Fanfic definitely does affect character perception. And so rarely in a good way.

And I would discuss it more but yeah, I'm going to be late for class now. :)

[executrix.livejournal.com]

I chuckle whenever I see the LJ user whose name is "rileysaplank" because it's so, so true. Part of it is Marc Blucas' hole-in-the-screen characterization (and in the jossverse, tall men are never unambiguously good anyway) but part of it is, well...Riley. Also I hate Sam so if he'd marry her he must be creepy too.

One good fanwank of the misogyny in the movie version of M*A*S*H* is that Hawkeye doesn't hate Margaret because she's a woman but because she's a Regular Army Asshole, and Riley starts out as enough of a Regular Army Asshole to create long-lasting detestation as far as I'm concerned. However, I did like him for as long as it took him to punch the colonel and yell, "No, sir, I'm an anarchist!" and I did feel sorry for him because Buffy treated him shabbily. I did not believe the whole running-after-the-helicopter thing for one minute, even though Miss Lonelyhearts!Jonathan was fun.

I was going to read the club_joss fic and participate, I swear, but I was daunted by its being, like, 800-googleplex pages long.

[emella.livejournal.com]

I see your point, and it's a good one. :) I too liked Riley up until that point and actually up until the end of Season 4. It was almost as if after season 4 there was no need for Riley, the initiative was dead and we were all sort of sick of him. So I totally agree.

The helicopter thing was SO cheesy. I hated the speech Xander gave and that whole sequence. It was dumb and it never would have worked between Buffy and Riley. It was almost like just because Xander said those words Buffy went after the copter. There was no real proof that she actually thought he was the one.

Basically I agree. ;)

[shannon730.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't think Marc Blucas did anything to help the character's likability. There were times I did sort of like Riley. Punching the Colonel was one of them. Buffy leaving him out of so much of her life was another. But overall the black-or-white opinion of the "monsters" he voiced in that one episode just killed it for me. It's where I had issues with Buffy in some episodes, as well as Xander. There's was, of course, more on the irritated because it was hypocritical side but...

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

I know; it was a long fic, and everybody is busy this week with school starting back. I probably should have planned this one for another week in retrospect.

I do have to say that I thought Buffy treated him very poorly as well. And he did get some moments that I liked. I liked his declaration to Xander in the basement that Buffy doesn't love him. I adored every second of his screen time in "Hush" because that episode was just magic. It really worked.

[emella.livejournal.com]

:) Love this post she made. :D

I think as far as that scene goes, Riley was just being stupid. I'm fairly certain(due to the fact that he'd only killed about 20 vamps) that Riley had never seen/been around a werewolf, and I'm pretty sure he didn't know Oz, like at all. So at first he probably had this idea that Oz was like some sort of alpha male-wolfish-stoic-possesive guy, and that sweet calm Willow wasn't the type to be into that. So it could be that Riley is assuming, or that could just be me. ;)

I read pretty much only slash, and I can confirm that the most hated character besides Buffy in Spander is Riley. It's really interesting to hear that he's a villain in het as well, I would have never guessed. :)

[shannon730.livejournal.com]

I'm sure it was stupidity and assumptions on Riley's part. Never said my dislike of him was rational. :) But it stuck with me. I read an essay once (don't remember where) about why fans disliked Buffy's father so much, since very little canon information up to season 5 suggested he was a bad parent. One reason given was the Nightmare episode. That it's one of the few times you see Hank Summers and while it's not real he was just horrible to Buffy.

Oh, yeah, Riley's hated in Het. Oddly I read mostly Willow/Spike, or Willow/Angel and there isn't a reason for the hatred really. In a Buffy-centric fic I can see it, but in Willow fic it's just misplaced. Of course, I tend to just leave out characters I don't like. Which is why Buffy plays a very small role in most of my fics. :)

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

I have got to say that it really surprises me that Riley ends up the bad guy in Willow het fic. They really had so very little to do with each other canonically, you know? I think that he's showing up in other pairings as the Sadistic Rapist Villain means that something else is going on here. *scratches head*

[shannon730.livejournal.com]

I don't get it either. I agree, they had little to do with each other in canon, and what there was, was positive.

I don't like Riley but he nothing suggests he's a rapist. It's not like with Spike, or Angelus where you can make a reasonable case for it. It's like saying Xander's a rapist (and yes, I have seen it in a few fics) short of using bad plot devices like spells, it doesn't make sense. They both have issues but were basically nice guys.

I understand why Spuffy or Bangel shippers would portray him as evil but other than that...

[emella.livejournal.com]

I pointed you to Reprise? I'm not even sure I've read Reprise. *scratches head*

Discussion info:
I've really hated that whole assumption that Riley is Evil. I can kind of get on board with Jameschick in that in a different light, Riley could be a hardcore soldier demon fighter. If Riley really was played by a different actor maybe we would have seen more than just that goofy do-gooder shlub, and maybe we could have seen more and gotten more out of things like Riley getting sucked off by the skankvamp that would lead us to believe he is more hard core. However, the Riley we saw wasn't like that.

I'm kind of of the mind that if people make Riley out to be a demon from hell who is out to kill all demons ever made and is all about the torture, then that story isn't really worth reading. I would much rather an author skip over Riley and sort of ignore him, than have him be this huge Villain. It's sort of like how a few bit of people don't like it when Buffy HATES S/X, except it's one step farther with Riley. Riley being an evil torture monger is the same as Buffy disowning Xander for being with Spike, they're both never going to happen, so why write it that way?

As far as the affecting perception goes, I would like to say my perception isn't swayed, but it really really is. I've recently come to the discovery that I hate certain episodes of canon-Xander. I LOVE Xander, but there are some times when I ask myself if anyone would ever be like that and then I realize, that were it any other show, I probably wouldn't really like Xander. I think that because I like to explore his deeper sides and his home life and why he needs to use humor as a defense mechanism is why I really like Xander. I want to know what he's hiding behind that humor.

It sort of stems off of the fact that we only get to see so much of those characters on screen. Our perceptions are always swayed because we like a character, we philosiphize and analyze small things and then build upon those analytical assumptions. - If we know that Riley is in the military and in the initiative, we can analyze and assume that he's been trained to think demons are brutal and dangerous, leading us to the assumption that he would treat all demons as animals, leading us to believe that he could get angry with them and punish them, punishing could lead to torture, and then wait, you step back and when you watch the buffy eps, you've built up this goofy happy guy into this mean sadistic marine.

If we really and truly like a character we want to know more about that character, however we only see 22 episodes a year, thus leaving us with HUGE gaping holes of history and personality to fill. So we begin to analyze small things, like Xander's parents drinking a lot, and soon we have his father brutaly raping him. It's sort of like a twisted cause and effect; because we see something in characters that we like, we want to know more, causing us to sometimes overanalyze and make uncharacteristic inferences.

And just think, it's all for the love of fandom! :P

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Huh? Well maybe you didn't. But I thought I found it through you. I know you told me about Sidelines, and I guess I just assumed you told me about that one too. Well, if you don't remember it, go read it. You'll love it.

I can kind of get on board with Jameschick in that in a different light, Riley could be a hardcore soldier demon fighter.

Exactly. Especially since the whole point of that fic is that nearly everyone Xander meets in his parallel lives are very different from the versions he knows.

I've recently come to the discovery that I hate certain episodes of canon-Xander.

You know, I never really thought twice about XAnder's character when I was watching the show. He had moments I really liked and others when I thought he was a total ass, but in general, I didn't care one way or the other about him. It wasn't until I started reading fanfic that explore the things you talk about in your comment that I began to be interested in the hidden facets of his character. *Then* he started becoming very interesting to me.

[emella.livejournal.com]

Sidelines is classic, and eliade rocks. I did read reprise, and I'd never read it before, but I did really like it. :)

Yeah, fanon is really what alters your perceptions of canon, I will admit I like fanon Xander WAY more. ;)

[tabaqui]

I've never much cared for Riley myself, although the fics that cast him as this huge sadistic/torturing/raping guy are, to me, far-fetched and OOC.

I don't *like* the Army. I don't like the way they take away initiative about a lot of things, and i don't like the way they want conformity to be the norm. And hey, 'don't ask, don't tell' sucks rocks. So people who join the Army and *stay* and are like - career-track are always kinda suspect to me.

Riley saw doctors - and other soldiers - hurting and experimenting on demons. Yes, demons, 'monsters', not humans, whatever. But i got the same feeling as if they'd been experimenting on cats and rabbits. Plus, they *knew* demons were sentient, which right there makes it so horrifically wrong as to have no excuses and yet...

So yeah, huge black mark against him right there. You certainly never heard stories of demons kidnapping and torturing/experimenting on random humans...

His loyalty was way too strong and went on way too long. He found out all sorts of things and *still* played the 'monster' card. He was a bigot in a lot of ways and he made no distinction between, say Oz and Clem and random, marauding demons/vamps.

And he was a hypocrite - going to the vamp blood-house? Sheesh.

I think that before Buffy utterly fucked him over, he really *was* a good boyfriend. He could physically keep up with her, he *liked* her and wanted to take care of her, he understood the dangers of her life and he could have helped her and made things easier for her. She, of course, would have none of it and pushed him away, which was too bad. I think if he had been immersed in her world a while longer he might have had an epiphany of sorts and actually done some good, because let's face it, he wasn't *stupid*.

I really despised how he went to Spike and physically threatened him. Spike can't fight back - that's such a lame, bullying thing to do! He'd never had dared had Spike been whole, and that pisses me off.

Being an Iowa boy, raised i'm thinking by farmers, i think he got a lot of respect and praise when he joined the Army and did well. I think the Army was his ticket 'out' and he was seen as a 'good guy' and somebody who'd really made it by his family and peers. I think he was raised to really respect soldiers and the things they did.

And then the Initiative showed him the seamy underside, but instead of trying to learn and form his own opinions, he ends up going off to do more 'monster killing' - basically hiding from the fact that life is not black and white.

I'd like to write a piece about that, really. About him discovering what's in the world and how he's simply confused and frightened - overwhelmed by these horrible, scary, *different* things. I think he'd have heard vamps and some demons talking and started to wonder just what was in there - but was too scared to question his training and his...position as the 'dominant' life form.

I don't think, at heart, he's 'bad' or 'evil' - he's just scared. He wants the safety of conformity and orders, he wants the 'us and them' mentality the Army provides so he doesn't have to see the grey in the world *and* in himself.

I don't like the character, I don't read fics where he's slashed because he's usually written as a sadist and i have no use for that. Particularly if he's slashed with Spike - that's a sick-making combo right there. But i can't get past his deliberate blindness, his hypocrisy, and his bullying.

[emella.livejournal.com]

Oh Tabi, you rock my socks.

I got about halfway through your comment and felt as if I needed to defend Riley to you, and I was already coming up with counter points as to why Riley isn't so... yeah.

But then! You went and made all my points. You must be a fantastic debater. :)

You *have* to write that Riley piece. *Have* to. Please? :(

That's really how I guess I see Riley, like this guy who joined the army/marines because it was the right thing to do, and then the initiative because it was cool/the next step/honorable monster fighter; And then right when things start to get kind of seedy and hairy, Buffy comes along and he's sort of saved from having to make a decision(at this point in time or in the future) of whether or not to think of questioning his superiors.

In my mind I guess it's sort of like he was about to idle; right about the time things started to get questionable is when Buffy showed up, so if she hadn't shown up, eventually things would have gotten worse and worse(from what we've seen with adam & Oz) which inevitably would cause Riley to question the intiative and his career with the military. However, I think that instead of standing up and deciding that the initiative is bad and quitting, or swallowing everything to stay in a comfort zone, he would Idle. He would decide not to decide. He's a good guy who was taught right from wrong, but he was also taught not to question.

It's like he would stay with the military by default because he's to afraid of having to think about any other option.

It's a good thing Buffy came along and blew that whole place wide open. :)

I like Riley, but only because he's sort of like a humble guy who's very very ignorant.

[tabaqui]

Yay!!
I try so hard not to bash the characters i don't like - almost *all* of them have something that i can sympathize with or work with. I don't like black and white. :)

I keep turning that fic over and over in my mind. You never know!

Yeah, i think so, too. He'd have gone along because you don't question, but i think, too, he'd have stopped 'excelling'. He'd have stalled out and just sort of become...marginalized. Some other soldier would have become the golden boy, you know?

Great potential for something really sad and lonely, there.
Thanks!
:)

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

I think you make a lot of really good points about the negative components of Riley's character as they are canonically portrayed. I have always thought that his inability to *get* the big picture about demons was a very exaggerated picture of the Scoobies' inability to get it either. They slowly accept individual people--Oz, Anya, Clem, etc., but still pull out the species card when thinking about demons at large. So, when talking about Spike, because say, Xander, doesn't want to accept Spike as possessing the capability to love, he pulls out the "he's a vampire" card. So, by the time we get to Ats, though, we've got Joss portraying whole races of demons as non-violent, etc. It's a really long story arc that I think Riley gets to be the object lesson for early on.

[trepkos.livejournal.com]

"I really despised how he went to Spike and physically threatened him. Spike can't fight back - that's such a lame, bullying thing to do!"

I really feel that this in particular was influenced by his fear of losing Buffy - and Buffy did the same, so it's quite likely he was taking his cues from her.

"he wants the 'us and them' mentality the Army provides so he doesn't have to see the grey in the world *and* in himself."

But he did get it when he saw Oz tranform, didn't he.
I choose to think the "running back to the army" was because without Buffy, he didn't have anything else, and that "marrying Sam" was an abberration by the writers.

"I don't read fics where he's slashed because he's usually written as a sadist and i have no use for that. Particularly if he's slashed with Spike"

Aw! Read mine! Go on! My version of Riley struggles with sadistic fantasies, but comes through in the clinch, and helps Spike.
And if you read it, you get a prize!

[executrix.livejournal.com]

In all fairness to the Long Drink O'High Fructose Corn Syrup, one difference between AtS and BtVS is that AtS is much more nuanced about the possibility of Not-Evil Evil Things. Buffy has a Slay 'Em All, Let Hell Sort 'Em Out attitude most of the time, even though Holden has quite a few good points to make and is helpful. (Of course, since he's played by Jonathan Woodward--the Attractive Face of Evol in the jossverse, he must be a potential Fred-killer.) And we DO see demons killing and torturing humans.

Anybody who carries the lesbian banner has to get at least one slash good-guy point...

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Anybody who carries the lesbian banner has to get at least one slash good-guy point...

Yes, yes. :) *g*

one difference between AtS and BtVS is that AtS is much more nuanced about the possibility of Not-Evil Evil Things

This is very true. I made a similar comment upthread somewhere to that effect.

[trepkos.livejournal.com]

Fanfic definitely makes me more sympathetic to most of the main characters apart from the out-and-out villains - both reading it and writing it.
Good writers tease out the motivations and point out character traits that I used to miss when watching, and have definitely made watching the shows more rewarding.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

I agree. I think fanfic also taught me to be analytical about television, something that I often was not. I saw TV as more of an escape, a time when I could just mindlessly watch something and not pay attention to all the things I have to pay attention to when reading for class. But I've found I enjoy television more when I do "read" it as carefully as the books I'm teaching.

[marie72.livejournal.com]

Hi, I'm late to the discussion...I saw your discussion of trepkos' awesome fic 'Moonstruck'...she made me see Riley in a whole new light...I detested his character on btvs (being a big Spike fan)...trepkos inspired me...through slash, I have read some great Riley fic (although not a lot out there)...if you are in the mood for Riley in a positive light, check out my LJ...I have a WIP fic called 'Revelations'...it is an Angel/Riley fic...it has 12 chapters so far...I hope you like it...

http://marie72.livejournal.com/

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the rec! I'll definitely check it out. :)