Wank Wank Wank Wank

[lunabee34]

Okay, velvet_virago. I said I had been planning a meta-post on this subject for some time now, and here it is. This is filtered through my experience as a writer but is also a more general comment on fanfiction in general.

The specific stuff first. I cannot write a sex scene to save my life. I've been writing in fandom since November 2004 and have yet to write a proper sex scene in any fic I've written. I either elide them or take the "morning-after-glowy-thinky" cop-out. I've got the best beta in the biz (shout-outs to kitty_poker1) and a flist full of writers who leave me all limp and quivering with their sex scenes. So it's not like I don't have support, examples to follow, or people I can go to for help and encouragement.

Yet, the thought of writing a sex scene paralyzes me with fear. Now to be fair, I also feel that way about writing Spike. That's why I write from Xander's POV. When I wrote that bit of Spangel for nashmaveric's Cole Porter ficathon, I wrote from Angel's POV, even though I had NEVER written anything about Angel. At all.

Tad more wanking on about Shadowlands, then some real questions about sex scenes in fanfiction


I'm really damn proud of Shadowlands. I've really been able to chart my progression as a writer with this fic. Do I think it could be better? Of course. I'm always looking to improve. And I know I have significant trouble areas to improve in. But I like the friendship between Xander and Andrew, and I like the slow way Spike and Xander have warmed up to the idea of being together. That being said, I'm not sure Shadowlands is going to have a proper sex scene at all. I don't want to put a mediocre (at best) sex scene in something I'm so proud of. (This doesn't mean, Kitty, that I'm not going to attempt the sex scene. LOL)

And I'm wondering how my readership is going to feel about that. Will they be upset if they don't get the "Spike and Xander make monkey love" scene? Will they feel cheated? Would more people be reading my story if it had some good smut every other chapter?

Now, let's extrapolate to fandom at large. When I first started reading fanfiction, the smut was the selling factor for me. Slash was so new to me and so exciting that fics many times gained or lost appeal for me based on the sex scenes. Now that I've been in fandom a while, I find that the sex is not a necessity in a fic for me. Not that I don't enjoy some well-written smut in an excellent fic. I'll see you a "Nice Shirt" and raise you the last chapter of "In from the Cold." But I've been reading a lot of PG-13 fics lately and gen, even, that I've really enjoyed. The sex is now an accessory to the fic, an adornment, for me rather than the main event. If that makes sense.

What I'm wondering is how much sex scenes matter to the fanfic audience. Are they expected? Are they a selling point for a majority of readers? Do people enjoy fics that never get to a really smutty place? What happens when a writer writes an otherwise great fic that doesn't deliver on the sex? Do you think there's a subtle pressure in fandom to make fanfic sexy?



I'm really interested in this question, so please pass it on to anybody you think might be interested or have an opinion. Thanks!!!!!!

Comments

[ex-claudia69504.livejournal.com]

I had the same *eep* reaction to writing sex scences as you do. I'd read fiction (mostly Willow/Spike) for a year before I ever attempted to write. Actually, I'm headed towards my 2 yr writting anni this November, and smut, even back then, was sort of a selling point. I think it's that way for a lot of people when they first get into a fandom. More of a 'see, now if they put THAT on the show, I don't think anyone would've gotten up from the couch' type thing. Rebel-like. *shrugs* At least it was for me.

And Spike/Xander ... that was a guilty pleasure. So, at first, it was all about the smut. I ate it up, and then ... like this light in the dark, there was plot.

I like, personally, a mix of love (either graphic sex or not) and plot.

Personally, writing sex scenes still scare the crap out of me, and most of the time, if I get stuck on a fic, that's where I'm usually stuck at. (See Provocation and Deep Water ... halted at the smut)

My first attempt at getting over it ... I wrote a pure 2000 word PWP. No plot. No thought for anything other than the sex.

It helped, a little. Made me seriously look at a Thesuarus and wonder just how many ways you could describe a moan or a thrust. lol But, it was benefical in the end.

As for the pressure to make fanfic sexy, I definately beleive it's there. Again, fanfic is sort of a guilty pleasure, and some of the stuff that's out there is out and out porn. No holds barred, in it for the sex, turn off the lights and thank the gods you got a massaging showerhead in the bathroom, porn. And while, it is somewhat expected, I don't think (unless someone is reading purely for the sex) that a reader will turn away just because there is no smut. A story, no matter what the premise or outcome, is mostly based on how well it draws you in.

At least, that's just me.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

I think it's that way for a lot of people when they first get into a fandom. More of a 'see, now if they put THAT on the show, I don't think anyone would've gotten up from the couch' type thing. Rebel-like.

*nods*

Also, I'd never read any m/m slash before I started reading fanfiction, and it was so intriguing and hot and I just wanted to read more of those sex scenes. I'd read femmeslash before; lots of romance novels contain lesbian scenes and of course, I'd read het sex scenes before, so it did feel kinda transgressive and exciting to be reading these kind of sex scenes I had never read before.

My first attempt at getting over it ... I wrote a pure 2000 word PWP. No plot. No thought for anything other than the sex.

I'm glad to know I'm not the only person this frightens. :) I think my strategy to getting over it will be somewhat similar. I want to be able to write *good* sex scenes and like everything else that's gonna take practice.

Thanks for answering in such depth.

At least for me...

[leprechaundance.livejournal.com]

Are they expected?
Not always. If it's rated nc-17 then I might.

Are they a selling point for a majority of readers?
Not for me. I usually read the summary before the rating anyway. Sometimes it's nice, but it's not necessary.

Do people enjoy fics that never get to a really smutty place?
I think they can be just as good, sometimes better than the ones that have smut. I notice that authors can get so involved with trying to work smut in that it can make the rest of the story seem flat and just the required words until the next sex scene.

What happens when a writer writes an otherwise great fic that doesn't deliver on the sex?
My opinion wouldn't really change. It is more of a bonus than a selling point.

Do you think there's a subtle pressure in fandom to make fanfic sexy?
Yes and no. I think it depends on what authors you read and their fans. Sometimes some authors are obviously there for the smut, and their readers are there for it as well. But other times you get some that have fans that don't really push it as much. But I have noticed that in some areas it does seem like people judge the quality of a fic by how many times they have sex.

Re: At least for me...

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

I notice that authors can get so involved with trying to work smut in that it can make the rest of the story seem flat and just the required words until the next sex scene.

I've noticed this before as well--writers seemingly throwing in sex scenes before they are merited. (The couple immediately starts having sex before the author adequately explains why they're together, etc.) That being said, if the fic is really well-written and the sex scene is really well-written it's not jarring or weird. It's only when the extraneous writing around the sex scene seems like a commercial you're being forced to sit through until you get to the good part that it's really a problem.

[shannon730.livejournal.com]

As someone who rarely writes anything above PG-13 I would say I agree there is pressue to write sex scenes but if the fic is good people will still read it.

More often than not, I'm not looking specifically for an NC-17 fic. Not saying I won't read it if it is, but it isn't a deciding factor. If I like the pairing and its well written I'll read it. (We're just going to pretend that SoGA doesn't suck up all my free time and I have time to read anything.)

I'm not saying you shouldn't try to write one if you want to, but I don't think anyone will dislike or be disappointed in the fic if it doesn't have it. I tried writing them, they were horrible, so I don't anymore.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

So in your PG-13s, are the characters having sex, just behind closed doors or in scenes the reader doesn't see? How do you handle that if so?

We're just going to pretend that SoGA doesn't suck up all my free time and I have time to read anything

*pet pet*

[jjjean65.livejournal.com]

I like how Shadowlands is going and if it does/doesn't have sex it won't matter as long as Spike and Xander have fun and are together. I like the relationship and emotion you portray.

Having said that, there are times a pwp is all I want. Other times I read a fic and skim the sex scene to get back to the story. I will read a fic even if it features a squick of mine just to read a good fic. That makes me a slash slut, right?

As a writer I tend to suggest what will happen and fade to black but I have written NC17 smut before. My first piece was a foursome crossover pwp done on a dare (different fandom).

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the compliment sweetie. :)

Having said that, there are times a pwp is all I want. Other times I read a fic and skim the sex scene to get back to the story. I will read a fic even if it features a squick of mine just to read a good fic. That makes me a slash slut, right?

If so, then me too. LOL That is my experience as well. Sometimes I *do* really just want to read something erotic. And more often than not lately, I find myself getting bored with the sex scenes and skimming over them to get back to the "story."

The fade to black is a really good option if done well, but it poses it's own set of challenges. How much do you show before the fade to black and is some reminiscing the next morning then in order?

[virtualpersonal.livejournal.com]

If it is a romantic relationship story, I expect sexual tension between the characters. I don't necessarily have to see the sex, but I have to feel the heat/spark between the characters. Some hot kissing/needing, then fade to black works absolutely fine for me.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

I think the sexual tension is key for me too. I've noticed that many times my favorite parts of fics are *before* the couple gets together, when they're still trying to work things out between them. Sex scenes also retain their draw for me when the couple is continuing to have issues even while they're becoming intimate. You and Nash did that so well in "PC." S/X kept having all these really sexy moments, but they hadn't worked things out between them yet, so the sex wasn't an "end." Well until the end. But, ya know what I mean. :)

[nashmaveric.livejournal.com]

Much like you, at first it was all about the sex. Now it's more about the stories ::grin:: So yeah, I do enjoy fics that don't have teh sex. But some stories need a big hot sex scene. If you have the build up, the tension between the boys growing, then you need to see that tension dissolve into hotness.

On another note, fanfic can be sexy without having explicit sex in it. Visualizing the boys dancing together for example, that can be damn sexy. Without the sex ::grin::

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

If you have the build up, the tension between the boys growing, then you need to see that tension dissolve into hotness.

I agree. I also agree with your notion that the hotness doesn't have to be graphic. I think SL is calling for some form of the tension dissolving, though. I just don't know how explicit it will be.

See my reply to Cas above for a comment about "PC."

[imaginaryimages.livejournal.com]

For a non-writer (strictly a reader) point of view:

I accidentally discovered slash while checking out buffyverse fic a couple years ago. I quickly gravitated towards reading Spander almost exclusively. Sure, the sex was HOT and exciting BUT I found over time that the story and their particular relationship is the thing that does it for me. No matter how hot the sex scene if it's not a good story it just doesn't do it for me. To me the best stories have the developing relationship, the "romance," the sexual tension but also a good plot with adventure, humor, etc. (just like your Shadowlands has).

Just as someone else mentioned, sometimes stories will have sex "stuffed" into the story with the story being a somewhat lame way to tie the sex scenes together, so no matter how well written the sex, they can easily fall flat. If it's plainly labeled PWP that's fine, I know what to expect. I usually look for more plot so am sometimes disappointed when one is presented as something it's not. A really good story (like your Shadowlands) even if it never develops into the full monty of monkey sex will do it for me. Watching their relationship grow and how they interact is what I read Spander for. The sexual tension even if it fades to black before actually showing us the sex can work very well. Occasionally writers will just slam the two together without any buildup or solid reasoning. A truly good story makes me believe that the two develop feelings for each other despite themselves and what we know of their canon characters' attitudes toward one another. To me, making me BELIEVE is way MORE important than a steamy sex scene.

So for what it's worth if you feel like a sex scene (or three!) fits this story, give it a shot, I'm sure your beta or many writers out there can give you a hand. If you feel the story would be just as strong without it, leave it out. It's certainly not necesarily to make me read it or not. There's a lot to be said for sexual teasing, tension, etc. A kiss or a dance can be way hotter than a sex scene if written well!

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Thanks for all the sweet words about SL. I really appreciate it. Silly as it sounds, words like that really do give writers encouragement to keep writing. :)

Occasionally writers will just slam the two together without any buildup or solid reasoning. A truly good story makes me believe that the two develop feelings for each other despite themselves and what we know of their canon characters' attitudes toward one another. To me, making me BELIEVE is way MORE important than a steamy sex scene.

Absolutely. This has become the major selling point for me for fic that showcases a non-canonical pairing of whatever genre. If the writer cannot convince me why the couple has changed sexual orientation or developed feelings for someone Joss never intended, it doesn't hold my interest. That's why I've become somewhat disenchanted with shorter stories lately. Sometimes they just don't seem to have the time to accomplish that.

[gloss]

What I'm wondering is how much sex scenes matter to the fanfic audience. Are they expected? Are they a selling point for a majority of readers? Do people enjoy fics that never get to a really smutty place? What happens when a writer writes an otherwise great fic that doesn't deliver on the sex? Do you think there's a subtle pressure in fandom to make fanfic sexy?
Whoa, questions!

I *do* think there's pressure to make fic sexy/smutty/whatever; I'd say there's particularly pressure to make *slash* fic that way, but I could be wrong...I write het and have lots of het-writing/reading people on my flist, but my focus remains, er. Homoerotic. But the pressure's there just in regular LJ discourse about drooling, squeeing, pretty boys, all of that. And smutty things tend to get more feedback. I think maybe it's easier to recommend smutty things? In that saying omg, this is so hot, read it now is easier than parsing out why a particular gen piece of characterization has worked for you. Since LJ seems to be all about the quick insta-response in terms of reading, feedbacking, and reccing, maybe smut's ease makes it more dominant?

The feedbakc thing. Hmmmm. It really depends on the pairing, I've found. Gunn/Wes PG fic tends to get a lot more comments than, say, O/X or S/X of the same rating (not that I've written S/X PG, but you know what I mean), and I think that's because there's an entrenched base of fans of the pairing who are fans of the *characters* more than fans of the bodies. My nonsmutty hetfic - usually Buffy/Oz - also does well in terms of commentage, better than lower-rated boyslash.

Then again, my utterly smutty A/X gets very few comments, so it's more than possible that I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Um, anyway. *rambling*

Don't be scared of writing sex scenes, but don't force it, either. (Like sex itself, really. *g*) If the story's not calling it for it, putting external pressure, like fannish expectations, won't help.

Thanks for the Nice Shirt shout-out, btw. *mwah*

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

But the pressure's there just in regular LJ discourse about drooling, squeeing, pretty boys, all of that.

Exactly. It's sorta like the whole teenage peer pressure thing. It's not that anybody's ever *told me* to put more smut in my fic or demanded that I kink it up or anything. But everybody's doing it. *g* Most of the slash fic I read does have sex in it. And there is, as you say, this unconscious pressure just in the way we talk about actors, characters, etc. to focus on the erotic.

And smutty things tend to get more feedback. I think maybe it's easier to recommend smutty things? In that saying omg, this is so hot, read it now is easier than parsing out why a particular gen piece of characterization has worked for you.

*nods frantically*

This is a problem I'm running into over at club_joss. I'm having a hard time getting the comm geared up to discuss gen fics or fics with pairings but not really any sex. People do seem, if not less interested, less willing to comment on these stories. And it's not that the comm doesn't have a lot of analytical minds in it. I've seen some seriously interesting since we debuted.

Thanks for the Nice Shirt shout-out, btw. *mwah*

You're welcome. That remains one of top ten fanfic reads of all time. *smooch*

[riani1.livejournal.com]

I've never had anyone say, "Put in more smut!" so maybe that means I put enough in. ;) My personal kink is seduction and UST, and I think most of the sex in stories--other than PWP--is extraneous. I definitely have seen stories where the plots are very thin connections between sex scenes. I have no problem at all with hot sex, but I'd prefer those scenes be relevant, such as a First Time or what might be a Last Time, especially during a very tense moment where emotional stuff can be dealt with.

I think I'm known primarily as a plotty writer. I do know I've had people say, "Oh, no, slash! Please, no!", so at least one person is hoping not to see smut. Now that I think about it, I have had requests for het to appear in my plottier stories (a question on whether Spike/Buffy would occur in my Career Change/Advancement series). Maybe it's my audience, but I get the biggest responses from angst and longing than from smut.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

I'd prefer those scenes be relevant, such as a First Time or what might be a Last Time, especially during a very tense moment where emotional stuff can be dealt with.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I know exactly what you mean. I also really enjoy the UST portions of a fic, and many (not most, but many) times once the ST is resolved, the sex feels like it should be the end of the story. One exception to this for me is for instance, Changes. That fic continues to engage me throughout, even though the sexual tension is resolved quite early. Hmmm....I don't think I'm explaining what I mean very well. See my comments above to virtualpersonal and nashmaveric. I think they were a wee tad more coherent.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Hi! Sent here by ponders_life.

If you're willling to take an opinion from a gen/het writer, let me just say:

I suck at sex scenes. Absolutely, positively suck. It isn't a mental block or even that I'm embarassed to write them, it's just that I can't write them at all, unless I'm writing them as a parody.

It could very well be that I lack the proper vocabulary. I mean, how many ways can you say penis or cock before it gets repetitive or you start stepping over into purple prose territory? (In truth, purple prose tends to embarass me a hell of a lot more than any sex scene.)

In truth, there are some very hot writers out there who write fabulous "OMYGAWDNEEDASHOWERNOW" scenes. Yet, with all the het and slash writers on my Flist who can write those scenes, with all those great examples, I can't even begin to come close, no matter how much I study those scenes.

Then, there's always the threat of accidental plaigarism if you peg your writing to the real bright lights in fanfic. (Something that I genuinely fear to the point that I'll actually avoid stories that have anything resembling the same concept of what I'm currently working on.) Or actual plaigarism. In one case that was famous in Buffy-Xander shipper fic circles, an NC-17 author that had been writing such stories for years actually lifted sex scenes from X-Files and Rosewell NC-17 fics and inserted them into his own stories. When he was finally caught out, his big excuse was, "Well, I can't write sex scenes."

To which my answer was: "If you are any kind of a writer at all, than you'd accept you can't do NC-17. If you haven't gotten the hang of it after a couple of years, then maybe you should throw in the towel and write something with a lower rating. You could've avoided this mess if you figured out that writing PWP wasn't a talent you actually had."

Which ultimately became my answer. What I'm good at is gen stories (very little of what I write can even be considered shipper, yet I got pegged as a Faith-Xander shipper long before I identified myself as such), so that's what I write. I rarely write above a PG-13 level (I think I have one story that's an R) and pretty much distract readers with the shiny plot so they kind of forget there's a distinct lack of sex or even, god help me, a ship.

Do I avoid sex? Not at all. In the rare instances where sex rears its head, I step right up to the line (http://www.livejournal.com/users/liz_marcs/75513.html) into the first moment of the act. Then I pick up in the aftermath (http://www.livejournal.com/users/liz_marcs/87378.html) (although I've never done the happy glow-y morning after thing, for some reason, I seem to go for the "Oh, god. What the hell did I do?" (http://www.livejournal.com/users/liz_marcs/88378.html)).

The one instance when I did a "during" in my fic (http://www.livejournal.com/users/liz_marcs/23016.html), the language was so fuzzy and indistinct because it was written from an emotional standpoint from inside a character's head. It was the only way I could get around having to write the actual sex scene.

I think it all comes down to playing to your strengths. No matter how good you are as a writer, there are just some things you're just not good at. The thing is, IT'S PERFECTLY OKAY. No one's good at everything, and writing is a lot like that. As long as you're honest with yourself and your audience, I don't see where you have anything to apologize for.

After all, a gen/slash fic is a beautiful thing to behold. Don't get me wrong, I like well-done smut. But someone who can write a really good gen/slash fic should be applauded just a loudly as a top-notch slash PWP writer.

Just my .02.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Of course. I welcome all opinions. :)

I can't write them at all, unless I'm writing them as a parody.

*nods vigorously*

If you need something to pulsate, pound into a silky love channel, or suckle milky orbs, then I'm your gal. *g*

I mean, how many ways can you say penis or cock before it gets repetitive or you start stepping over into purple prose territory?

Exactly. And for me, it's not even so much horror of the purple prose, but horror of the cliche. You have to write a really damn innovative sex scene to not be merely repeating the fandom cliches. And I know it can be done. I see people doing it. LOL I just find it harder to think outside those cliches I guess.

Or actual plaigarism.

Wow. I hadn't heard that story before. Plaigiarism is a BIG NO NO. LOL It amazes me that those people think they won't be found out.

As far as the rating on my fic goes, it's advertising NC-17. And there's been bad language galore and drug use, and I *thought* when I started the thing six months ago that there would be sex. I thought my irrational fear of writing sex was a newbie fear just like my others (fear of voice, etc) that would eventually melt away. I knew that I wanted a slow builup to the sexy parts, so I thought by the time I got to those bits, I'd be ready. I never imagined having that fear this far along into my fannish involvement.

Thank you so much for your words of encouragement. ANd what I appreciate most about your comment are the links to examples of what you mean. I only read those isolated chapters, but now I'm intrigued. :) I think I'm gonna be checking out the whole shebang.

[sunnyd-lite.livejournal.com]

Hopped over here with a link from Ponders_Life

Me, I'm a plot and characterization slut. Not arguing against PWPs or blush inducing sex scenes, but I want to know the characters, what they're thinking, feeling UST and solid banter. I love the 1940s screw ball comedies and look for that kind of dynamic, which S/X is a gold mine for. Again slow development where an unexpected lingering look gives a character a *wiggins* can entice me more than "tab A, slot B lots of lube" scenes.

And I love seeing other characters interact with the main pairing, it creates a world that way, rather than a snapshot.

Gaa shouldn't comment prior to caffeine in the morning. But that's my 2cents.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Thanks for chiming in. I feel the same way about fic now, I think. I really appreciate a well done erotic scene, but I'm much more focused on dialogue, etc than I was before.

I also really appreciate the comedic potential of Spander. Even more so when it's mixed in with some angstiness. Yum Yum. :)

[ponders-life.livejournal.com]

The more I read fanfic, the less importance the NC-17 rating holds, and I've almost stopped reading PWPs completely (although I'll always make an exception for stories such as ladycat777's King of Cats (http://www.subtle-salvation.com/Stories/kingcats.htm), which, in my opinion, is a masterpiece of finely-crafted erotica).

I read fanfic primarily for stories that have an interesting plot, solid characterization, and romance, but not necessarily all three in the same story -- meaning that I do read genfic, so I will definitely read stories that don't have sex in them. I have to admit, though, that if I've invested a lot of time reading about the slow development of a romantic relationship, I do expect it to include the sexual consummation of that relationship, and yes, I'd feel a bit cheated if the author chose not to show us that scene -- but it doesn't have to be NC-17 porn! The tone of the consummation scene should be consistent with the previous relationship-building scenes. For me, the emotion is what's important.

But you say "the thought of writing a sex scene paralyzes me with fear." I respect that fear and I don't want you to be uncomfortable. However, I see that fear as a challenge. Regardless of what you think your readers want, I think you should try writing the sex scene. If you don't, I think you're cheating yourself. Based on the quality of your writing in Shadowlands thus far, there's no doubt in my mind that you can do it. Think of the boost in confidence it'll give you once you've done it!

I pimped this discussion in my journal even before I drafted my own comment; hopefuly, it'll bering you a few more viewpoints.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

I have to admit, though, that if I've invested a lot of time reading about the slow development of a romantic relationship, I do expect it to include the sexual consummation of that relationship, and yes, I'd feel a bit cheated if the author chose not to show us that scene -- but it doesn't have to be NC-17 porn!

I feel the same way as a reader. I would feel cheated if I didn't get the emotional pay off as well. That's why I'm certain that the next chapter of SL is calling for some making out.

However, I see that fear as a challenge. Regardless of what you think your readers want, I think you should try writing the sex scene. If you don't, I think you're cheating yourself.

I think you're right. I've been practicing since I made this post. LOL But when I remember how terrified I was once of writing Angel or of writing dialogue and think of how far I've come since then, I feel a little better. I don't think it will be as graphic or explicit as I had originally envisioned months ago when I began this, but that's okay too.

Thanks for the kind words about SL and for pimping the convo. I did indeed get more viewpoints. *smooch*

[callmesandy.livejournal.com]

Are they expected? Are they a selling point for a majority of readers? Do people enjoy fics that never get to a really smutty place? What happens when a writer writes an otherwise great fic that doesn't deliver on the sex? Do you think there's a subtle pressure in fandom to make fanfic sexy?

Expected? Depends. As a reader, if the story sets up juicy sexual tension and I'm all, ooo!, and sex seems like a big element of what's happening between the characters, then yeah, I kinda want something. If the sexual tension is incidental, then it can be one line and I'm fine.

Selling point? Uh. With writers I know deliver great smut, with a rating that promises it, then yes. But I've found the writers who deliver great smut are often writers whose stories even without sex scenes are well worth reading. (And I enjoy lots of writers who rarely if ever write sex scenes as well.)

There are pairings where I want sex scenes from the stories, but that tends to reflect my perception of how the characters would relate or how I'd want to see it ... I dunno, that was probably unclear. Some pairings I think would yield great sex and while I enjoy stories where there is none, I kinda think, man, I wish could find sexy sexy sex scenes a riffic stories featuring them.

And yes, I enjoy long and short and everything in between stories with no sex scenes at all. Swear!

There's pressure there for sex - PWP and NC-17 romps will get more feedback, generally. I've observed. :)

I used to write more sex scenes, but I don't like my sex scenes writing and so, fewer stories with those. But there are stories where it matters, it's part of what's happening in the story, to the characters and how they relate in bed matters. One of my first stories had no sex scenes at all and I so regret that, like, I look back and go, shit, it would have made this one so much better. And there was the story where there had to be some sort of sex scene because it mattered that one of them sucked at it.

I dunno. Stories that need sex are stories that need sex, and sometimes I think, hmm, that sex scene was superfluous when reading. So as a reader, yeah, I don't need it or expect it, unless the story makes me think I do. If that helps at all.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

There are pairings where I want sex scenes from the stories, but that tends to reflect my perception of how the characters would relate or how I'd want to see it ... I dunno, that was probably unclear. Some pairings I think would yield great sex and while I enjoy stories where there is none, I kinda think, man, I wish could find sexy sexy sex scenes a riffic stories featuring them.

No, no. That makes sense. Some pairings tend to lend themselves to more sex. Off the top of my head, I see Faith as a very sexual person and might expect more sex from a fic with her as part of the major pairing than say Dawn.

But there are stories where it matters, it's part of what's happening in the story, to the characters and how they relate in bed matters.

I think this is one of those stories. LOL

Thanks for commenting.

[julia-here.livejournal.com]

(Bounced off Glossling's journal)

By the way, I'm reading "Shadowlands", appreciating it a lot, recommending it at the S'cubie board, and never commenting.

You are welcome to kick me now.

I am discomforted by writing sex scenes, which makes my own WIP a little hard to deal with at times: I've got Drusilla and Angelus on a Transatlantic voyage in 1867, and it's pretty far fetched to think they'd go the whole way celibate. I'm stuck at referring to rather than describing, and am trying to think it's not a weakness.

I'd not be offended if "Shadowlands" ends with no big OMGSOHAWT sex scene, but I will be offended if there's no emotional climax; you've been building up to some kind of bigtime declaration or insight or whatever, and I think that's what's important.

Julia, bad reader, when it comes to being meticulous about fb

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

No, no kicking. I also do not leave fb with the frequency I'd like. It's that pesky little thing called RL eating up all my time. *g*

I am greatly encouraged by the number of writers that both here and privately to me have admitted also feeling at the very least slightly uncomfortable about writing sex scenes. Logically, I knew I wasn't the only one, but knowing *for sure* really does help me not feel so much an oddball.

I will be offended if there's no emotional climax; you've been building up to some kind of bigtime declaration or insight or whatever, and I think that's what's important.

I agree 100%. Hence the angsting. :)

Thanks for your kind words about SL. I appreciate it.

PS What is the S'cubie board?

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

Here via glossing, and for me, as a reader, the sex isn't necessary - the thrill of UST, the banter, the first touch or first kiss can be just as satisfying if it's written well. I admit I read fic mostly for hte romance, so while I'll read gen sometimes, I want the romance. But if the sex feels forced or tagged on, it's no good. I'd rather the author have faded to black.

As a writer, if the sex doesn't fit, it doesn't go in. Or it gets cut out. I wrote a Remus/Xander crossover that was originally supposed to be a PWP, and I ended up cutting all but hte most glacing reference to the sex out, because it turned out to not be about the sex at all, and the sex wasn't working for the story.

Sometimes I *want* to write nothing but a sex scene, I want to use the sex to illuminate the characters - I have a couple stories that are nothing but sex which attempt to do just that - but if it doesn't fit in the context of the larger story, it ought to be left out.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Thanks for commenting.

I'm finding that people's views on sex in fanfic (or at least the people who have moseyed over this way) are much more like mine than I had hitherto believed.

I want to use the sex to illuminate the characters

Yes, yes, yes. That is exactly what I want a good sex scene to do. Not just show me that part A licks part B, but something about the characters themselves in the *way* part B is licked. Oh dear god, that may be the single most retarded sentence I've ever written, but I think I'll leave it. LOL

Here via metafandom

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

For me, I'll read anything in a short fic. Doesn't have to have sex. But if I'm going to invest my time in a novel-length, or even novella fic, I really do prefer that there be at least some sex. But no sex would be better than bad sex, if the rest of the fic were well-written. That said, I really don't read long fics all that much anyway, so...

Re: Here via metafandom

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

I tend to agree with you. I'd rather read no sex than bad sex.

I find it interesting that you don't read long fics as often. Some of us were commenting in threads to this post that we *prefer* long fics because they give a writer time to develop relationships, etc. If you don't mind me asking, why do you prefer shorter fics? :)

[decarnin.livejournal.com]

Here via glossing. This is an informative discussion for me, because I didn't realize that gen stories had slash pairings! So now I know. :-) This may be a common belief, actually, if a gen story gets fewer comments -- maybe people think of gen as non-ship fic, and so don't read it? Y'all don't know me over here in this fandom, so you may actually *believe* me when I say: for me it's all about the story. The romance -- by which I don't mean sex. There are writers out there whose bravura sex scenes literally make my *jaw* drop, but even then, I'm really reading the story for how they got there, what they acted like while they were there, what they said to each other, etc. Unlike some of the commenters, I seem to encounter a lot of fic where the *sex scene* is the weak part of the story, very generic in nature, that might more profitably be replaced with the literary equivalent of "cut to the crashing waves"; at least, *I'd* sure like to get back to the story a lot faster!

Maybe just write a secret sex scene for yourself -- not to put into a story, but just to make the sex go the way *you* would like it to go, without worrying about readers? Though for some people the terror is about putting the words on the paper, never mind having anyone else see it! But it's interesting that you've already overcome fear of writing dialog, etc., I'm sure that bodes well for the future of your sex scenes! :-)

On a technical note, I think repeating a word fairly often, when it's needed, works better than reaching for a strained substitute; just as repeating a character's name is way preferable to "the other man", "the taller man", "the older man" and similar shudderacious phrases. On the other hand, sex scenes, if you really feel it, are as good a place as any to go for the purple! After all, if this isn't a transcendent moment, what is?

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

This is an informative discussion for me, because I didn't realize that gen stories had slash pairings! So now I know. :-)

I'm actually slightly unclear about the term myself. *g* The way I'm using it here, I mean stories that don't have sex in them or non-canonical relationships. So for instance, a story about Spike and Xander being friends would be gen in my book. If the story mentioned that Xander was dating Anya or that Spike had once dated Harmony it would still be gen to me. Does that make sense? I don't know what the actual definition is. :)

On a technical note, I think repeating a word fairly often, when it's needed, works better than reaching for a strained substitute; just as repeating a character's name is way preferable to "the other man", "the taller man", "the older man" and similar shudderacious phrases.

I agree, and that was a hard lesson to learn. My first fic was full of those kinds of shudderacious phrases *g* and I must admit the impulse is still there. I don't know why that seems to be such a common error that new writers make.

Thank you so much for all the encouraging words. The responses to this post have really helped me gain enough confidence to thrust ahead...so to speak. *g*

from metafandom

[mmebahorel.livejournal.com]

There are as many audiences as there are fandoms.

I do write smutty scenes, but I haven't written gratuitous smut. Even the two fics I've written that I call porn are about character and relationships rather than just being pretty smutty pictures. The interesting thing is that even though I am a straight female, I have never written straight smut with the detail I have written gay and lesbian smut. I have this odd fear of it.

Not every relationship is about sex. I've got an OT3 that is actually never going to be about sex - it's young men in nineteenth century England who are fully aware that sex is illegal, but they love each other as far more than just friends. However, that love does not exclude the possibility of other, lesser loves, including the possibility of getting married and having children. I would find smut, with these guys, appealing, but a little odd (especially since they are canonically all in love with the same girl). I think really good writers can make interactions that never go beyond a quick kiss on the cheek more erotic than any run of the mill pornography attempt.

But I'm not everyone. Most of my fandoms are nineteenth century and British and thus are totally repressed. I find that repression highly interesting from a dramatic standpoint and boy does it up the angst level in slash fic. I don't expect sex in these fandoms except in a hurried, furtive way that can be drawn out in a kiss as much as in any buggering the protagonists can manage. I want relationships, I want character development, I want to see how these characters manage in their world. Romantic relationships are certainly a part of that. Sex is a part of that. But the lack of romance and lack of sex are also extremely telling. Sometimes I want to go looking for teh pr0n, and I generally know where to find it. I write sex for my characters as plot point and as character development. But I don't expect sex in every relationship fic. And I read a lot of gen.

Besides, while I don't read much happy sparkly fic, sometimes people want that, and happy sparkly fic should have lots of happy sparkly kissing but no smut because really, smut isn't sparkly. It's too intense for something light and bright and happy.

Re: from metafandom

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Your fandom sounds *very* interesting. I did a Victorian lit queer theory MA and what you're writing/reading sounds right up my alley. Do you have any links (and/or pertinent fandom info) that might get me started?

Besides, while I don't read much happy sparkly fic, sometimes people want that, and happy sparkly fic should have lots of happy sparkly kissing but no smut because really, smut isn't sparkly. It's too intense for something light and bright and happy.

Interesting....You know, I have come to expect sex more often in the "happy sparkly" Spander fics than perhaps in more serious ones. I wonder why that is. Maybe it's because Spike is a vampire and sex somehow *always* seems a part of the equation for him to fans? *shrugs*

[http://users.livejournal.com/_sharvie_/]

This probably varies so far from person to person. For me? Sex is a huge issue for me. But not just in fanfic, in everything I do. Fanfic is just another way I get my fix. *bg* So I pretty much ignore everything with an R or lower rating. I might take a peek in on an R fic if it is by a writer I like but on the whole, no.

Shorter stories get more lee-way. But if I'm reading a multi-chapter fic....there better be a pay-off at the end! Or I'm going to be left unsatisfied!

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

I'm sure it does vary from person to person, but I think you're hardly alone in your viewpoint.

If anything, this has taught me a lesson about rating fics. *vbg* I think in future, once SL is done, I will rate each individual chapter of the fic rather than banking on something that may or may not happen in the future.

[mofic.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the interesting post and thanks, metafandom, for picking it up.

What I'm wondering is how much sex scenes matter to the fanfic audience. Are they expected? Are they a selling point for a majority of readers? Do people enjoy fics that never get to a really smutty place? What happens when a writer writes an otherwise great fic that doesn't deliver on the sex? Do you think there's a subtle pressure in fandom to make fanfic sexy?

These are good questions. I think like all big questions they don't have an answer for fandom as a whole.

I like sex in its place, and I think it has a definite place in fiction (fanfic or published). It serves a lot of purposes. It can advance plot, illuminate character, enhance understanding of relationships. It can be emotionally affecting, and in a lot of ways. Sex scenes aren't necessarily hot, and if they are hot, they aren't always just hot. They can be sad or exuberant or funny or creepy or tender. I think sex scenes written well and with a strong reason to be in the story really enhance the fiction.

OTOH I do think that a lot of fanfic has detailed sex "just because." Just because we can in fanfic and they can't in canon (for a lot of fandoms - clearly there are exceptions like QAF that are sex-intensive in the source text, too). Just because it's expected because a lot of fans look on it as a selling point, just as you describe you did at first. Just because it's a challenge to write sex well. For those of us who are women writing m/m slash it's a particular kind of challenge. I usually say that anatomy being what it is, I have to make all the sex up, and I like really working at writing sex from a male POV precisely because it isn't easy.

As a reader, I don't feel a generalized need for sex scenes. I feel a need for well-drawn characters, believable plots, themes that interest me. I don't read the sex scenes to get off; I don't view fanfic as a kink. I read the sex scenes the same way I read the rest of the story and I look for those scenes to have a function in the story. I think the functions that sex scenes provide can be fulfilled by many other kinds of activities. You learn a lot about a character by how s/he behaves sexually, it's true. You also can learn a lot about a character by how s/he behaves at work, or talking to his/her lover, or playing a game, or having a fight or anything else. So, no, I don't think sex scenes are required.

OTOH, there's something about sex that makes it pretty compelling and also pretty universal. It's something almost everybody does and almost everybody can relate to, in some sense. My primary fandom (X-Men), like a lot of fandoms, has in canon people who fight a lot. I'll read anything in the fandom that's written well, including stories with lots of fighting and no sex. In general, though, I'm much more interested,in X-Men fanfic with detailed sex scenes than detailed fight scenes. I like sex better than violence :-).

I also do feel sometimes like sex is missing from a story I'm reading. If there's a lot of detail about interactions between a couple and then kind of a PG fadeout when they would be having sex, I sometimes feel a little cheated. I do feel occasionally like there's a hole there, like the story would have been better if we didn't go from "they're going to do it" to "the morning after." I don't think I feel that way with all stories, and often the author has a real purpose in leaving out the sex scene and it makes it stronger for that. I guess, though, if I feel like the sex scene ought to be part of the story and the author didn't put it in just because she was uncomfortable with writing it, it can feel like something's missing.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

It serves a lot of purposes. It can advance plot, illuminate character, enhance understanding of relationships. It can be emotionally affecting, and in a lot of ways. Sex scenes aren't necessarily hot, and if they are hot, they aren't always just hot. They can be sad or exuberant or funny or creepy or tender. I think sex scenes written well and with a strong reason to be in the story really enhance the fiction.

Exactly. And those are the scenes I enjoy reading most--the ones that are creepy, funny, etc, in addition to being hot. I also appreciate when a writer of a sex scene makes it believeable, and I don't just mean in terms of anatomy or flexibility or refractory periods. *g* One of my current fave WIPs has a sex scene between two guys who've been friends their whole lives and at one point during the sex, they start giggling and laughing at an inside joke. That kinda stuff I appreciate...the sex that is at times fumbling or not ecstatically sublime and perfect. Does that make sense?

[poisontaster]

OK, I no longer remember how I got here. Sorry. It was a strange, long path (aren't they all?)

Anyway. I can't really divorce my reader-self from my writer-self, but in either case, what I'm really looking for is story. I actually don't like a lot of slash, but I'll read it if the writing is compelling, with or without sex. And if the writing ISN'T compelling, it doesn't matter HOW much sex they throw in there, I'm out the door.

I don't know if I would call it pressure to write sex, so much as a trend, like an undertow current. You can write whatever you like and put it out there, and there are people who will read it, but just like any other media, sex is what captures attention most easily.

As a writer, I feel seriously compelled to constantly stretch myself and my comfort zone. Most of my ideas are novel length ideas. After finishing my first novel (FINALLY!), I started messing around with short stories, because they were a format I'd never really been able to do successfully. Now I'm trying fanfiction, which I actually find a LOT more difficult than original fiction. I definitely had some tremors about sex scenes. Mostly I grapple with how graphic I need/want to be. At some point I realized I was actually sort of terrified to get too graphic, so I deliberately set out to write some stuff that was more graphic than I was comfortable with. After slapping my hands away from the 'delete' key more times than I can count, I've actually gotten better about it.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

It was a strange, long path (aren't they all?)

Indeed. *g*

I can't really divorce my reader-self from my writer-self

That's a really interesting comment. *muses* I *do* divorce my reader self from my writer self. Hmmmm..... Maybe that's part of my problem. I've been a reader as long as I can remember, but only defined myself as a creative writer very recently. Maybe I'm too readily separating "what Lorraine can do" from "what Lorraine reads all those awesome writers doing." Something to think about.

Now I'm trying fanfiction, which I actually find a LOT more difficult than original fiction.

I've never tried to write original fiction (we're gonna ignore the Civil War romance novel I attempted at age 11 *snicker*), so I can't compare the two. I *can* say that I think fanfiction provides a unique set of opportunities and possibilities for creativity. What you write interacts with the source text in a dynamic way. To a certain extent, an OF also interacts with texts that have come before it, but not so blatantly or ummm......compellingly.

I think, like you, that if I practice, I can overcome this fear.

Thanks for putting your two cents in the change jar. :)

[dreamplum.livejournal.com]

I'm a huge perv, yet I also write 2/3 pg fanfic and run a huuuge PG fanfic archive.

Do people enjoy fics that never get to a really smutty place?

Personally, I do, but I prefer fics that are satisfying *emotionally* in a romantic way. If a story is fifteen pages long and Kirk and Spock (my OTP, please don't make fun of me :P ) never really resolve anything, I'll get frustrated. But if they decide to spend their lives together, and maybe I get a cuddle and a kiss, I'll be happy. I don't really need the monkey sex. It's nice, but romance as a literary genre got along quite fine without it for centuries--mainly because it did find ways to make sure the emotional and g-rated physical aspects of the relationship got significant focus. Sensuality doesn't have to be sexuality, also. Heartbeats quickening, soft skin, etc.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Sweetie, I would never make fun of you. I didn't realize what I was doing at the time, but the first fanfiction I ever wrote was ST. I even belonged to this incredibly dorky club that went to cons and made its members adopt a StarFleet persona. Actually, I should say my parents belonged. I was eleven and all the members were adults. *g* I also used to write ST plays and force my brother to play the part of Deanna Troi so that I could be Worf or Picard or any of the other guy parts. So, now we can make fun of me.... LOL

It's nice, but romance as a literary genre got along quite fine without it for centuries--mainly because it did find ways to make sure the emotional and g-rated physical aspects of the relationship got significant focus. Sensuality doesn't have to be sexuality, also. Heartbeats quickening, soft skin, etc.

This is very, very true.

[profshallowness.livejournal.com]

Belatedly responding - I came here from metafandom started reading the comments, and have only now got round to finishing them. Interesting discussion.

What I'm wondering is how much sex scenes matter to the fanfic audience. Are they expected? Are they a selling point for a majority of readers? Do people enjoy fics that never get to a really smutty place? What happens when a writer writes an otherwise great fic that doesn't deliver on the sex? Do you think there's a subtle pressure in fandom to make fanfic sexy?

I don't expect sex unless if I'm reading NC-17 rated fic and it hasn't been noted that that's for violence or disturbing scenes. Sometimes I'm in the mood for NC-17 fic, but I'd rather it be good than it be forced or if it dilutes the rest of the story. I'd also rather not read a generic sex scene, and I think that there are a lot of those, where the writer is obviously bowing to perceived reader pressure, rather than writing to their strengths, in that case a characterful PG-13 examination of the characters' feelings with a few selective moments and the fade to black is often a lot more telling. I've been to enough places where the smut was 'eh' that I don't mind it being excised. Having said that, when it's well-written and genuinely hot - whether that's in a PWP or as part of a larger fic, and reveltory about the characters I'm all for it.

I think that there's definitely pressure (and it isn't subtle) to make fanfic sexy, trouble is, people think that it always has to be explicit, partly because this is a safe speace for writers to write graphic erotica. It's also the shipper motivation at work, we know that the readers want to see the characters get together. However, in doing so there's a danger of forgetting that sexy is about more than sex.

Having only skirted R, I don't have practical advice, but it looks as if there's been plenty of goos stuff said already. Ultimately, if it doesn't work for the story, you don't need to add a sex scene, and if practice doesn't make you any happier with writing sex scenes generally, there's no need to bow to pressure.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Thanks for responding. :)

I've been to enough places where the smut was 'eh' that I don't mind it being excised.

Exactly. Even in stories that I greatly enjoy, at times I'm all "Please stop doing it and get back to the story, please." LOL I think that happens more frequently in stories that are very long and that are posted over time in chapters. In other words, a WIP with long chapters that comes out every couple weeks or month or so. I find that those sometimes feel the need to have sex in every chapter, maybe because of the length of time in between posts. Don't know if that really made sense.

[pinkdormouse.livejournal.com]

Thought I'd add my comments, seeing as you invited me.

I think one of the ways I'm different from a lot of people in fandom is that I was reading fiction with explicit m/m sex before I started reading fanfiction. So I tend to judge sex scenes by those in Pat Califia's 'Doc and Fluff' and the various novels I borrowed off a male flatmate and his friends. I'd also been reading lesbian SF romance from a very early age as neither my mother or the elderly librarians had any idea what was in the Women's Press books I was borrowing.

So my main response to encountering slash ('Blakes 7', early 90's) was that women were trying to write fanfiction for a TV series I liked but with themes that were closer to some of the GLBT fiction I was reading and (occasionally) writing.

Since then I've been away from fandom and come back, given up writing altogether and then returned with a vengeance (and writing better than ever in my opinion). But I still compare fanfic to the stuff I was reading in 1991, and it's rare that I find sex scenes in slash that comes close to the joy I had the first time I read 'Doc and Fluff'.

Gina

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Thought I'd add my comments, seeing as you invited me.

Glad you did, and welcome. :)

Pat Califia's 'Doc and Fluff'

I feel a trip to the bookstore coming on. *g*

I'd also been reading lesbian SF romance from a very early age as neither my mother or the elderly librarians had any idea what was in the Women's Press books I was borrowing.

Before I found fanfiction, I had never read anything with graphic m/m sex in it. Like you, however, I discovered that many sci-fi novels (and many traditional romance novels) contained graphic f/f sex scenes. So, those I was quite familiar with before I came to fandom.

If you don't mind me asking, what fandom do you write in and what's your OTP?

Lorraine, the ever curious