Surely Heaven Waits for you: Oh, Dean!
Mar. 15th, 2009 07:50 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
lunabee34I have a theory. It isn't bunnies.
SPOILERS for Death Takes a Holiday
This isn't a new theory either; it's one I've suggested in the past, so before I reveal its newer and more horrible incarnation, let's chart the progression of this idea.
From my review of Are you there, God? It's me Dean Winchester::
I have to say that I am very excited about the direction that SPN is taking this season (as well as wary, for reasons I'll outline here). One of my all time favorite SPN episodes (in the top five) is "Houses of the Holy." I love that that episode deals with faith in a very complicated and nuanced way that doesn't offer any answers but also doesn't close any doors. I think that's one of the most grown up episodes the show has done. I also love the episode where Dean is trapped in the wine cellar with a demon and they just shoot the shit for about 15 minutes of episode time. We learn that demons don't have any more of a connection to the divine than we humans do; they don't know if Lucifer is a myth or real and they all choose to have faith or not in their Leader in the same way that the good guys have to decide what they believe about God (or gods). I love love love love Dean's fatalistic belief system--that he keeps on fighting the good fight because he believes in people and right for right's sake rather than any overarching good or the promise of a future reward. It's very Hemingway-esque of him and I like that. But, like Sammy, I can't stand to think of them living in a world where only evil exists and the coin has no flipside, no cosmic balance. I'm wary of this story arc because I don't want any easy (or cheesy) answers or solutions here. I want the delightful ambiguity of "Houses of the Holy." And I hope we get it...
Also, we've already seen Castiel show a blatant disregard for human life. The person whose body he's possessing is dead now and I wonder how the dead guy feels about the possession. Is he begging for control? Or is he content that he's fulfilling the will of God? I wonder if Castiel just *thinks* he's an angel? I wonder if he's something else entirely, either because he's lying or just mistaken about his own identity.
From my review of It's the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester:
First let's talk about that episode title and what it reveals. In It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown, Linus is convinced that the Great Pumpkin is real even though everyone else disbelieves. Linus does all the right things: he writes a letter, he gives up trick-or-treating to sit vigil, he believes earnestly and sincerely with the expectation that that belief will manifest in reality. And yet, the Great Pumpkin never comes. Do we get canonical proof that the Great Pumpkin isn't real? No. But we can't say for sure that he exists either...
Which leads me to this prediction: I have not been nor do I want to be spoiled for future episodes (although uninformed speculation is welcome!) but I believe that we are eventually going to learn that like demons with their perhaps-mythical Lucifer, the angels are fighting for a God that they can't prove exists. I loved in "Sin City" when Dean learns that demon theology isn't all that different from the human version. Demons are operating on faith. Does Lucifer exist? If he does, what's his plan and what's my role? And I think the same will be true of angels. I think we're gonna end up in the field with Linus, waiting for a Great Pumpkin that never shows but whose existence cannot be disproven. That's the kind of ambiguity that will make me very, very happy with this show. ETA: I just watched again with Josh and I meant to mention the way that Castiel brings up John Winchester in order to justify the way he follows orders. John Winchester, Lord love him and so does Lorraine, was an incredibly flawed individual who was by no means infallible. So invoking his memory at this juncture just serves to shore up my prediction in my estimation.
In "I Know What You Did Last Summer" and "Heaven and Hell," we learn that only four angels have ever seen the face of God, that wards against angels exist (and angels know how to use them as well as demons), and that an angel's power (or grace) is essentially energy.
"Death Takes a Holiday" puts a much darker veneer on this little theory of mine which I'll now spell out for you.
I think that ultimately, Lucifer and God both are mythic figures in SPN theology. Neither side knows if its Leader is real; each must take that on faith. I think that angels and demons alike are fighting for their own agendas or on the basis of tradition with very little regard for human life. And I think that maybe heaven is just a pipe dream.
Tessa reveals that Reapers are neutral, that they're not working for either side. They have jobs to do and they do them. They are like erosion or photosynthesis--natural processes that occur under certain conditions that are neither good nor evil. And I'm nodding along and really digging that development until she implies that heaven doesn't exist. We know hell is real. Dean's been there; John's been there. Every demon that's been on the show has been there. (I think it's a little unclear how people's souls get to hell. I wonder if Reapers take them there or if the only souls flung into the Pit are those that make deals or otherwise hold truck with demons. But I digress.) But heaven? That we don't know about. We see Father Gregory and John and Molly and little Cole in this episode disappear into a flash of light. But what does that mean? Tessa warns Dean that the angels have nothing good in store for him, no reward, and that I've been expecting from the get-go. Castiel and Anna seem the exceptions to Uriel's extreme xenophobia, and I've thought all along that whatever agenda is behind Dean's rescue has yet to be revealed. I wouldn't put it past the angels to toss him back into hell when he's done whatever it is that they want him to do. But when she says that people are just lying to themselves and to each other--she's in a better place, they're together now--that's when I start to get chills up and down my spine. Because I can't tell if she doesn't know what's to come, if Reapers haven't read the last page of the book either, or if she's trying to tell him that there's nothing else after this life. That heaven isn't real.
"Surely heaven waits for you?" Oh, Dean. What if it doesn't?
ETA: And now that I've read some of your comments, I have this to add. I also am a big believer in duality and balance, which makes it hard for me to believe in a hell but not a heaven. I guess what I'm driving at here is not that heaven doesn't exist, but that it bears no relationship to the traditional Christian version of such. In canon, hell is not the place you go to be punished when you die. Hell is the place that souls go to when they make deals with demons for whatever reason (even good reasons). Hell is hellish because demons *enjoy* hurting others. Alistair loves hell; he feels at home there. Granted, other demons seem not to enjoy the experience so much, but different strokes, right? It seems to me that however it came to be in SPN cosmology hell is not a place of punishment for humans but a playground for demons. There's a very real difference, I think. What if heaven is the same: not a reward, not a guaranteed peace, just a place. A place that the angels likely control. And if that's so, we've seen how Uriel feels about homo sapiens.
SPOILERS for Death Takes a Holiday
This isn't a new theory either; it's one I've suggested in the past, so before I reveal its newer and more horrible incarnation, let's chart the progression of this idea.
From my review of Are you there, God? It's me Dean Winchester::
I have to say that I am very excited about the direction that SPN is taking this season (as well as wary, for reasons I'll outline here). One of my all time favorite SPN episodes (in the top five) is "Houses of the Holy." I love that that episode deals with faith in a very complicated and nuanced way that doesn't offer any answers but also doesn't close any doors. I think that's one of the most grown up episodes the show has done. I also love the episode where Dean is trapped in the wine cellar with a demon and they just shoot the shit for about 15 minutes of episode time. We learn that demons don't have any more of a connection to the divine than we humans do; they don't know if Lucifer is a myth or real and they all choose to have faith or not in their Leader in the same way that the good guys have to decide what they believe about God (or gods). I love love love love Dean's fatalistic belief system--that he keeps on fighting the good fight because he believes in people and right for right's sake rather than any overarching good or the promise of a future reward. It's very Hemingway-esque of him and I like that. But, like Sammy, I can't stand to think of them living in a world where only evil exists and the coin has no flipside, no cosmic balance. I'm wary of this story arc because I don't want any easy (or cheesy) answers or solutions here. I want the delightful ambiguity of "Houses of the Holy." And I hope we get it...
Also, we've already seen Castiel show a blatant disregard for human life. The person whose body he's possessing is dead now and I wonder how the dead guy feels about the possession. Is he begging for control? Or is he content that he's fulfilling the will of God? I wonder if Castiel just *thinks* he's an angel? I wonder if he's something else entirely, either because he's lying or just mistaken about his own identity.
From my review of It's the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester:
First let's talk about that episode title and what it reveals. In It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown, Linus is convinced that the Great Pumpkin is real even though everyone else disbelieves. Linus does all the right things: he writes a letter, he gives up trick-or-treating to sit vigil, he believes earnestly and sincerely with the expectation that that belief will manifest in reality. And yet, the Great Pumpkin never comes. Do we get canonical proof that the Great Pumpkin isn't real? No. But we can't say for sure that he exists either...
Which leads me to this prediction: I have not been nor do I want to be spoiled for future episodes (although uninformed speculation is welcome!) but I believe that we are eventually going to learn that like demons with their perhaps-mythical Lucifer, the angels are fighting for a God that they can't prove exists. I loved in "Sin City" when Dean learns that demon theology isn't all that different from the human version. Demons are operating on faith. Does Lucifer exist? If he does, what's his plan and what's my role? And I think the same will be true of angels. I think we're gonna end up in the field with Linus, waiting for a Great Pumpkin that never shows but whose existence cannot be disproven. That's the kind of ambiguity that will make me very, very happy with this show. ETA: I just watched again with Josh and I meant to mention the way that Castiel brings up John Winchester in order to justify the way he follows orders. John Winchester, Lord love him and so does Lorraine, was an incredibly flawed individual who was by no means infallible. So invoking his memory at this juncture just serves to shore up my prediction in my estimation.
In "I Know What You Did Last Summer" and "Heaven and Hell," we learn that only four angels have ever seen the face of God, that wards against angels exist (and angels know how to use them as well as demons), and that an angel's power (or grace) is essentially energy.
"Death Takes a Holiday" puts a much darker veneer on this little theory of mine which I'll now spell out for you.
I think that ultimately, Lucifer and God both are mythic figures in SPN theology. Neither side knows if its Leader is real; each must take that on faith. I think that angels and demons alike are fighting for their own agendas or on the basis of tradition with very little regard for human life. And I think that maybe heaven is just a pipe dream.
Tessa reveals that Reapers are neutral, that they're not working for either side. They have jobs to do and they do them. They are like erosion or photosynthesis--natural processes that occur under certain conditions that are neither good nor evil. And I'm nodding along and really digging that development until she implies that heaven doesn't exist. We know hell is real. Dean's been there; John's been there. Every demon that's been on the show has been there. (I think it's a little unclear how people's souls get to hell. I wonder if Reapers take them there or if the only souls flung into the Pit are those that make deals or otherwise hold truck with demons. But I digress.) But heaven? That we don't know about. We see Father Gregory and John and Molly and little Cole in this episode disappear into a flash of light. But what does that mean? Tessa warns Dean that the angels have nothing good in store for him, no reward, and that I've been expecting from the get-go. Castiel and Anna seem the exceptions to Uriel's extreme xenophobia, and I've thought all along that whatever agenda is behind Dean's rescue has yet to be revealed. I wouldn't put it past the angels to toss him back into hell when he's done whatever it is that they want him to do. But when she says that people are just lying to themselves and to each other--she's in a better place, they're together now--that's when I start to get chills up and down my spine. Because I can't tell if she doesn't know what's to come, if Reapers haven't read the last page of the book either, or if she's trying to tell him that there's nothing else after this life. That heaven isn't real.
"Surely heaven waits for you?" Oh, Dean. What if it doesn't?
ETA: And now that I've read some of your comments, I have this to add. I also am a big believer in duality and balance, which makes it hard for me to believe in a hell but not a heaven. I guess what I'm driving at here is not that heaven doesn't exist, but that it bears no relationship to the traditional Christian version of such. In canon, hell is not the place you go to be punished when you die. Hell is the place that souls go to when they make deals with demons for whatever reason (even good reasons). Hell is hellish because demons *enjoy* hurting others. Alistair loves hell; he feels at home there. Granted, other demons seem not to enjoy the experience so much, but different strokes, right? It seems to me that however it came to be in SPN cosmology hell is not a place of punishment for humans but a playground for demons. There's a very real difference, I think. What if heaven is the same: not a reward, not a guaranteed peace, just a place. A place that the angels likely control. And if that's so, we've seen how Uriel feels about homo sapiens.
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no subject
Date: 2009-03-16 04:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-16 10:36 pm (UTC)I think that interpretation is more likely, that she just doesn't know what come next.
See the ETA to my post for more. :)
no subject
Date: 2009-03-17 03:04 am (UTC)I would agree that perhaps it bears no relation on traditional christian values, but I'm not sure if I would agree that hell is the place that people go when they make deals. I'm thinking that hell may be the place you go if you enjoy pain and harm and sadism so to speak where as heaven may be the opposite. It may not be a religious thing, but I can't imagine that so many bastard evil rapisty people (in the SPN verse) just walk free because they didn't make a deal with the devil. What if it's more of like a black and white with shades of gray thing, meaning you tend to lean towards the black or white side but you could still be somewhat good or somewhat bad. What if it's not even a 'good' vs. 'bad' thing what if it's just that you lean towards one end of the scale or the other. Maybe you do go to one or the other but it's not just judged on good vs. evil.
I guess this goes along with your comment on that it's just a place, I came to sort of the same conclusion.
I dunno it's something to think about.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-17 03:15 pm (UTC)That *is* something to think about. :)
I just hope whatever happens that it isn't lame, you know? LOL
no subject
Date: 2009-03-16 12:00 pm (UTC)I think that reapers only see the beginning of the journey, and perhaps they see a soul/spirit discovering that the afterlife *is* something, and so perhaps don't get any really clear image of what's going on.
Or perhaps they see 'heaven' as not being any better than hell, and don't see a point in choosing one or the other. After all - they have their job no matter what.
I dunno. I think that Dean is a lot more than he seems. I think that he's going to have to do something/s he's going to hate even more than what he did in hell to save the world/Sam. I think Sam is going to break more than we imagined, and more spectacularly.
I think in the end, they will be themselves, together, forever, but i also think the end of season four is going to fuck us all up hardcore and hiatus is going to suck, suck, suck.
But that's just me, heh, and i'm not spoiled *at all*.
*luffs speculation about teh boys*
no subject
Date: 2009-03-16 10:38 pm (UTC)ETA: And now that I've read some of your comments, I have this to add. I also am a big believer in duality and balance, which makes it hard for me to believe in a hell but not a heaven. I guess what I'm driving at here is not that heaven doesn't exist, but that it bears no relationship to the traditional Christian version of such. In canon, hell is not the place you go to be punished when you die. Hell is the place that souls go to when they make deals with demons for whatever reason (even good reasons). Hell is hellish because demons *enjoy* hurting others. Alistair loves hell; he feels at home there. Granted, other demons seem not to enjoy the experience so much, but different strokes, right? It seems to me that however it came to be in SPN cosmology hell is not a place of punishment for humans but a playground for demons. There's a very real difference, I think. What if heaven is the same: not a reward, not a guaranteed peace, just a place. A place that the angels likely control. And if that's so, we've seen how Uriel feels about homo sapiens.
I think that Dean is a lot more than he seems. I think that he's going to have to do something/s he's going to hate even more than what he did in hell to save the world/Sam. I think Sam is going to break more than we imagined, and more spectacularly.
I think you are so right and I cannot wait to watch it.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-17 02:08 am (UTC):)
no subject
Date: 2009-03-16 02:50 pm (UTC)Heaven is exactly the same, except everybody feeds the person on the other side of the table.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-16 10:39 pm (UTC)With All This Shit There Must be a Pony Someplace
Date: 2009-03-16 10:55 pm (UTC)Re: With All This Shit There Must be a Pony Someplace
Date: 2009-03-16 10:57 pm (UTC)That's it exactly, I think.
I Live in Hell, "Cause I've Been Expelled from Heaven
Date: 2009-03-17 03:09 pm (UTC)Re: I Live in Hell, "Cause I've Been Expelled from Heaven
Date: 2009-03-17 03:15 pm (UTC):)
no subject
Date: 2009-03-17 07:32 am (UTC)okay that, gave me chills. D:
no subject
Date: 2009-03-17 03:16 pm (UTC):)
(Is that Daniel Jackson in your icon?)
no subject
Date: 2009-03-18 10:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-18 02:56 pm (UTC)