Question about drinking habits outside the United States

[lunabee34]

My students are writing arguments right now, and they've been reading the essays in their comp textbook about whether or not we should lower the drinking age in the United States.

Here are a few quotes from these essays:

Ruth C. Engs "Why the Drinking Age Should Be Lowered: An Opinion Based on Research"

Based upon the fact that our current prohibition laws are not working, alternative approaches from the experience of other, and more ancient cultures, who do not have these problems need to be tried. Groups such as Italians, Greeks, Chinese and Jews, who have few drinking related problems, tend to share some common characteristics. Alcohol is neither seen as a poison or a magic potion, there is little or no social pressure to drink, irresponsible behavior is never tolerated, young people learn at home from their parents and from other adults how to handle alcohol in a responsible manner, there is societal consensus on what constitutes responsible drinking.

Robert Voas "There's No Benefit to Lowering the Drinking Age"

I keep hearing the same refrains: “If you’re old enough to go to war, you should be old enough to drink,” or “the drinking-age law just increases the desire for forbidden fruit,” or “lower crash rates are due to tougher enforcement, not the 21 law,” or “Europeans let their kids drink, so they learn how to be more responsible,” or finally, “I did it when I was a kid, and I’m OK.”


I'm really curious to hear about this issue from the perspective of those of you who live in other countries. Do Europeans have fewer drinking problems than Americans, or is that a myth? Or is it more complicated than either of those answers? What about the culture groups that Engs mentions?

Comments

[crevanfox.livejournal.com]

I don't know how helpful it would be to hear from a Canadian-but here goes.

In most provinces and territories the drinking age is 19, in a few places like Quebec it's 18. This is to purchase alcohol. It's my understanding that drinking at home, from 14 onward, provided it's supervised and the teen doesn't get drunk is also legal.

I get the impression that alcohol isn't as big a deal here as in the States. I had my soother dipped in beer and my apple juice spike with a tiny shot of vodka to keep me quiet when I was teething. No one ever got upset over that.

Most people tend to look the other way when underage kids are drinking unless they start acting up. Buying alcohol though has gotten extremely strict in the last few years. The LCBO cards everyone.

We have stronger ties to Europe where underage drinking is allowed, and we never went through Prohibition where drinking was seen as the worst of all evils, so we just don't seem to care as much as others.

I live in a university town, and every Friday night the kids who've just stumbled out of the bar district (all of whom are legally old enough to drink) are extremey loud and annoying. The area has cops devoted just to breaking up the fights. Most of us in the area think it's kid who never got to drink at home, getting their first taste of freedom and not being able to handle themselves.

TL;DR: Canadians won't sell to minors, but we don't care if they drink, so long as they are discreet and behave.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

No, this is very helpful.

Thank you for such a detailed answer.

How's the public transportation in your area? Because one of the things that occurred to me is that so many places outside the US have public transportation that eliminate the drunk driving dilemma.

[crevanfox.livejournal.com]

In my area public transportation is fairly good- but there are places in Canada I've lived where it's absolutely abysmal.

We also have the RIDE program during peak drunk driving times of the year, where the police set up stations at random places on the road and everyone going through gets a quick talking to (and if necessary breathalizer) to check for DUI

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

I would imagine there are lots of places in Canada that don't have public transportation just because there's still a lot of wilderness.

The police do a similar thing here, setting up random road blocks on major holidays and etc.

[thelastgoodname.livejournal.com]

From the little bits of actual research I've read, the significant differences are not with drinking ages, but between cultures where drinking is attached to eating, and where drinking is an activity of its own--so where the consumption of alcohol is primarily done while eating, either out or in the home, there are fewer problems associated. (I should clarify: I mean social problems. Alcoholism isn't strictly a social problem, although it is strongly correlated to other social problems.)

In societies where drinking is an activity of its own (and not primarily attached to eating), regardless of whether people drink and watch sports or drink and dance or drink and talk, there are more problems associated with drinking. The fact that this split is trending towards more American-style go-out-to-get-drunk behavior among youth in other countries is probably a bad thing.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

This makes a lot of sense to me. When you drink in the course of a meal, your goal is not to get drunk but to complement what you're eating. (Which is not to say that people don't ever get drunk at dinner parties)

[thelastgoodname.livejournal.com]

(I imagine they don't get *as* drunk on account of the full stomachs, though. Dinner party ≠ frat party.)

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

*nods*

That's my rule for myself, actually.

Must eat when drinking and must drink water.

[trobadora]

I don't know any actual numbers, but as far as attitudes go - everyone I know is definitely convinced it wouldn't be a good idea to have your first experiences with drinking when you're already allowed to drive. ;)

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

You're in Germany, right?

Do most of the people in your neighborhood drive, or do they rely on public transportation?

Because what often happens here (in rural areas anyway) is that kids find some corn field on the back forty to get smashed in that requires them to drive several (or possibly many) miles home after drinking. Which public transportation would help to solve.

[trobadora]

In the city (where I'm living now) a lot of people use public transportation. But where I was living before, a lot of my friends were from small villages, and they did drive as soon as they could.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

*nods*

It makes sense that there would be some places where people drive.

[executrix.livejournal.com]

There's a Yiddish phrase, "A shikker [drunk] is a goy"--which is not to say that there are no alcohol-abusing Jews, just that use of *small* amounts of alcohol (wine at Passover seders, a shot of schnapps or whiskey after Saturday services) is culturally valued, but intoxication is culturally disvalued. There certainly isn't indulgence for binge drinking as being worthwhile masculine behavior--ZBT frat boys are acting more like frat boys than like yeshiva-bochers!

I notice that your quotes don't say anything about the British Isles, where I think that heavy drinking for men is institutionalized in a lot of subcultures.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Thanks for weighing in with the Jewish perspective, Exec.

That's a great point about the British Isles. All I have is anecdotal evidence, but I have a couple friends who lived in Wales for more than a year and heavy, heavy drinking (and the requisite being stupid) was definitely part of living there for them.

[lyr]

Well, you know I don't live outside the U.S. But I am from a culture that allows drinking from a young age, and I got my own wine glass at family dinners from the age of 2. Mind you, I only had a couple of sips in that glass back then, but still. Growing up, if I wanted a drink, I just poured myself one; no one thought anything of it. I really do feel that this upbringing had a major impact on the responsible way I handle alcohol today. I have never in my life actually been drunk, for instance, because I stop well before that point. I was taught that you drink for the taste as an indulgence at social occasions or to pamper yourself, but like really good chocolate, you only have a piece or two. I really love a good cocktail, but that's still the way I go about drinking them.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

That's really interesting to me.

We have always consumed alcohol in the presence of my daughter (responsibly of course), and so she's always seen adults drinking and understands that it is a grown up activity. I have to admit that the thought of actually allowing her to drink it before she's a teenager makes me really uncomfortable, but she will definitely be allowed to have wine with dinner here at the house with us long before she reaches the legal drinking age.

I think modeling is the key part--seeing grownups drink responsibly.

[lyr]

I think it's also important that it not be some big, forbidden thing. While all my friends were wildly titillated by the idea of sneaking drinks, I was totally puzzled. I was all 'what, drinking? I do that whenever. Big whoop.' I cannot tell you how many times I was the designated driver.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

*nods*

It was completely forbidden in my household, never even in the house, and when I went off to college, I went kinda wild with the experimentation. Of course, my parents were repressive in a lot of ways, not just that one, which I think contributed.