SPN Meta question: finale spoilers

[lunabee34]

In which Lorraine is curious about the YED

I assume within this post that unlocking hell was always part of the YED’s ultimate goal. I figure he probably knew where the Colt was all along and was content to leave it with Daniel Elkins until his plan came to fruition. I mean, it's not like the gun was getting any play in Elkins's possession; he seemed to just be hanging on to it. So....

Meta Question:

Why can’t the YED intimidate a random Joe or Jane into unlocking the Hellmouth?

Answer: Because it's not just opening the gate that's important--it's the power to control what emerges that counts. Which leads me to two very interesting ideas:

1. The YED can't control what escaped hell (either he can't control those forces alone, or he can't control them at all). Otherwise, why would he have spent years on the plan to create one soldier to lead this army? He'd simply lead it himself if he were able. The psychic children are not the army; one of them is intended to lead the army because for what ever reason, the YED cannot.

2. So the YED can't control the demon horde, but Sam can. That's the implication, right? He's the last man standing. "All Hell Breaks Loose" part two implies that no other psychic kids are living (at least in Sam's generation; the demon is already seeding the next generation of potential soldiers in case this one fails as shown in that episode whose name escapes me where they save a mom and baby from being burnt up by the YED). So Sam is the man.

Thoughts?

ETA: Unconnected thought about Dean--I read in some reviews of the ep that some people didn't like the scene where Dean talks to Sam's corpse because it felt redundant, that Dean didn't have to say those things out loud because the show already implies them. While I agree that the show does imply the love Dean feels for Sam, I think it was important for Dean to say those things out loud. First off, that scene mirrors the hospital scenes in "In My Time of Dying" with either Sam or John sitting by Dean's bedside. So a nice bit of continuity. Secondly, I think Dean suspects that Sam could be around listening to him; they haven't burned his bones yet. It's not outside the realm of possibility for Dean that Sam's spirit could be hearing him. Also and most importantly, I loved that scene because it was awesome.

Comments

Been mulling over some of the same things...

[imaginaryimages.livejournal.com]

I admit I had to watch the ep again to better understand why some random Joe couldn't have opened the gate. I wonder why the YED demon couldn't lead the army himself? Perhaps he knew he might not make it? Maybe it needs to be someone more or less human (well, an enhanced human, anyway)? I guess these will be some of the things that will need to be addressed next season along with how Mary knew the YED. Here we were commenting on how Dean can't lie to Sam, but Sam is keeping a whopper of a secret at the moment.

Dean..totally agree that it had to be said outloud. For me, it's all things Dean can't say to Sam's face, but by talking to a dead Sam, he was finally able to say what he felt. As you said as well, a nice bit of mirroring Sam's conversation to a comatose Dean at the beginning of the season.

Re: Been mulling over some of the same things...

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Here we were commenting on how Dean can't lie to Sam, but Sam is keeping a whopper of a secret at the moment.

Absolutely. I think what's interesting about their relationship is that Dean appears to pretty much be an open book for Sam. He can't lie for shit to Sam and Sam knows instantly in "Skin" that the skin walker isn't his brother. Sam, on the other hand, can lie to Dean quite convincingly and keep things from him (the thing about Mary, the visions of Jess he had before she died) and let's not forget that Meg walks around in Sam's body for an awful long time and still Dean doesn't get. Dunno what any of that means, but it's interesting.

I agree that it needed to be said aloud. Neither Sam nor Dean are super shary with their feelings as much as Dean teases Sam about the chick flick moments. That's why I think Sam's "You're my big brother and I LOVE YOU FOREVER" speech was so important; he's never said anything like that to Dean, either. In canon anyway.

[tabaqui]

Since we know from the crossroad demon that there *are* rules in hell, and limitations on demons, i'm thinking you're right. For whatever reason, the YED couldn't or wouldn't lead his own army. Perhaps it had to do with the army itself - perhaps those demons would only respond to a certain leader.

I hadn't really thought about it, but yeah, very interesting idea, indeed.

I loved the scene you're referring to. It rather broke my heart to hear Dean say, out loud, that he felt like an utter failure.
*sniffle*
Oh, Dean.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

perhaps those demons would only respond to a certain leader.

*nods*

That would make sense.

I just loved that scene too. I thought it was shot beautifully, with Dean in dark, dark shadow and his face all grey looking and then Sam shining in the background. The icons of those frames are gonna be gorgeous.

[tabaqui]

Yup, they really are.
*gazes at episode*
*watches again and again*

[mugabe.livejournal.com]

do we know what rank in hell YED had? (i use past-tense assuming that he really is dead--if in season 3 we find out that he isn't, i fear the show may have jumped the shark.)

in this episode, the crossroad demon said "i could get in trouble for this" (or something to that effect), which makes me ponder who would be angry. YED? is he in charge of hell? if so, why can't he lead the army? YED saying something about "red tape" when talking about demons resurrecting people makes me think that there is someone higher up than him. but then the fact that "many have tried" to kill him (as he told soldier boy) makes me wonder if he is the show's equivalent of satan, or possibly just an upper-level demon (a la Balthazar in Charmed).

i'm a little hazy on season 1, so if i'm making a canonical error, just say so, but Meg Masters...she was possessed by the YED's "child," right? i remember her calling someone (we assume to be YED) "father" when she was using the chalice of human blood, so two possibilities: she's a literal child or just a disciple. i'm more inclined to believe the former, just because of the language--i don't see demons viewing their hierarchy as a family.

so. do we know for certain she was communicating with YED? if not, then whoever it was would probably be in charge, and clearly invested in the plan to unleash an army.

WHICH REMINDS ME...Croatoan. the virus. what happened with that? in the end, a demon uses the chalice o' blood (made by Motorola?) to tell someone (again, we assume YED) that Sam was immune. but we never hear about the virus again. (right?)

again, if these demons are talking to someone other than YED in the blood, then clearly said entity has an interest in YED's plans, so it isn't like YED is usurping the rules of hell/hell's hierarchy.

what i really wonder about is why is sam the favorite? he has the power of visions. he can't control people, he can't move things, he can't make people's hearts stop (poor blonde lezzie, gettin' strung up like that, a damn shame). soldier boy said something about how once you give in, there's a whole world of power or whatever. does this mean that, now that sam has essentially given in and killed--the extra couple shots into soldier boy's dying body gives me the impression of a hint of bloodlust/vengence--his powers will expand? but i just don't see visions alone being enough power to control hell's army.

here's my meta querrrstion. why do assume YED's sex/gender to be male? because he inhabits men's bodies? is it a rule that "male" demons only inhabit human men and likewise for "female" demons?

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think the YED bought the farm. They're not gonna screw around with that. I hope.

I dunno know what his rank is. My assumption is that he's not Satan, if one all-powerful demon of hell even exists in the world of SPN. I'd say it's more likely there are a handful of really powerful demons drawn from every culture's mythos that are "in charge" in a way.

You're right about Meg, and I think she was the YED's actual daughter, whatever that means for demons, rather than simply being affiliated with him in the hierarchy. We also never know for certain that she's communicating with the YED, although that's certainly implied.

The whole Croatoan thing pissed me off, because I thought as soon as they ended up in this abandoned town that it was going to be because the demon had cleared out the town using the virus. I was all, "Yay! Way for making "Croatoan" make sense in the larger scheme of thing." Except then, not. It's a long abandoned town that apparently everyone can immediately recognize from descriptions of its bell. *lame*

I think the implication is that Sam can do what all the other psychic kids did and more if he would only allow himself to become as dark as is necessary to bring that power to fruition.

That's a good question about the gender of the YED. I don't know what its gender is. Meg inhabits both male and female bodies, so I'm assuming the YED could do the same. I think probably demons aren't gendered in any way that humans would understood; only the human hosts they inhabit are gendered. :)

[lyr]

It's also possible that the gun itself is not the only thing one needs to unlock the Hellmouth---possibly one needs to be special for it to work. Hence Colt's care in locking demons out, but no care at all in keeping humans out---he wouldn't have worried about it if regular humans can't open it.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Oh that's a good point. Perhaps just anyone can't wield the key.

[hyding.livejournal.com]

Where you see questions I see holes, and I sincerely hope the writers wrote them on purpose. Sorry, not really helping in answering your meta questions. I have one that's killing me right now: Dean's necklace - WHAT WHY HOW. Anybody?

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

What about Dean's necklace? Am I missing something?

:)

[hyding.livejournal.com]

Dude! There are forums dedicated to solving the mystery surrounding Dean's necklace! Hhahaa in one of the interviews (I think it was some convention) both Kripke and Ackles dodged the question re Necklace but did say there's something going on. Oh man, I can't get over it. Hey just a tiny question: I'm in Australia right now so I have absolutely no idea when does new seasons of a tv show usually show during the year over in the States, can you let me know just approximately about when?

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Oh, right. LOL I thought you meant something was up with his necklace during the finale. Gotcha. I'd love to get some backstory on that bit of jewelry.

New seasons start approximately at the beginning of Sept. Late Augustish. FOREVER away, essentially. LOL