lunabee34: (meta foucault by jjjean65)
[personal profile] lunabee34
Last week, I posted a poll about sex in fanfic.

Here are the tentative results:

Admittedly, the sample size is pretty small (37 participants), but apparently many of those who answered my poll routinely skip over sex scenes in fic. We seem to be pretty evenly split on whether the presence of sex scenes are important to our enjoyment of fic and on whether we think our readers expect us to include sex scenes in our fic. Most participants say they have not included a sex scene in their fic because they feel it is expected. 84% think stories with sex scenes get more attention than those without them and most participants indicate that the way they feel about sex scenes (either as a reader or writer of fanfic) has changed over the course of their fannish involvement.

And some followup questions (which some of you answered in your comments to the post):

If you skip over sex scenes, why? What compels you to do so? If you're one of those who always reads them, why? Those of you who feel like your readers expect you to include sex scenes in your stories, where does that pressure come from? What's given you that idea? Any evidence (anecdotal or otherwise) for stories with sex scenes getting more attention? Anyone else want to share how your thoughts on sex scenes have changed over the years?

I'm still interested in the questions that didn't get answered in the comments to the post poll:

What should a good sex scene do? What should the purpose of sex in fanfic be? What do you do to keep sex scenes fresh and original as a writer? What would you like to see more of in sex scenes? What works best for you as a reader and/or writer of sex scenes? Got any links to sex scenes that you think work really well?

Date: 2010-02-11 11:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] executrix.livejournal.com
A good sex scene should not only make the reader madly horny (bonus points for useful suggestions ze can use if ze has a suitable partner) but do so in a way that is, if not unique to the characters involved, at least specific to them.

NOTHING works best for me as a writer of sex scenes, it's bloody hopeless.

BTW, I have sent you the material for your Consumer Report, if it doesn't arrive check your spam box--it might have landed there.

That's a stimulus package I could get behind

Date: 2010-02-11 11:22 pm (UTC)
ext_2351: (writer by sukibluefiction)
From: [identity profile] lunabee34.livejournal.com
I have sent you back my verdict. Yea verily, the axe has fallen.

but do so in a way that is, if not unique to the characters involved, at least specific to them.

*nods madly*

This is where I think so many sex scenes lose me.

Date: 2010-02-12 01:40 am (UTC)
ariadne83: cropped from official schematics (Default)
From: [personal profile] ariadne83
I have watched Supernatural! *flail*

So, the Cain and Abel metaphor - the angels keep using it but I do not think it means what they think it means. On the surface, yes, it's brother killing brother, but what about the whole "cursed for eternity" thing?

Do they realize that the whole point of that story is that killing your brother is WRONG and it will fuck you up FOREVER? Which means, Michael is wrong. All the other angels are WRONG. No matter what, killing Lucifer would be wrong. And are they saying that they're jealous of Lucifer because he's free to do what he wants?

Prodigal son, FFS!!!!

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if it ended with a literal deus ex machina, and God laying the smackdown on all the angels (barring maybe Castiel, but I wouldn't be surprised if he sacrificed himself for the cause sometime soon) - especially Michael and Lucifer.

ETA: also, I kinda want fix-it fic, where Anna leaves the host she created (in order to get out of jail), and she offers to save Ellen if Jo will be her new host. And together they kick ass on the righteous side of the apocalypse.
Edited Date: 2010-02-12 05:11 am (UTC)

Date: 2010-02-13 01:53 am (UTC)
ext_2351: (spn: ellen b/w by abmo)
From: [identity profile] lunabee34.livejournal.com
I have a theory we won't actually see god but that we'll be in the final battle and Sam and Dean will be fighting, no way they can end, 2 seconds from death and the whole world being gone, and then bright flash of light and bam. All the bad guys are dead. (I'd like that ending a hell of a lot better than God actually appearing in the flesh or Sam and Dean saying yes to Michael and Satan. I do *not* want to see them duke it out in their bodies.)

I think what else they're missing is that if it's all just the same old song and dance, Cain and Abel recreated throughout the ages, then God is one sadistic motherfucker. They're just reading the lines he wrote for them and wow. What a dick. I'm waiting for the Trickster to show back up and play some major role in whatever is happening.

OMG, I love your idea for Jo and Anna. Like a lot. I hate to see her character go. Anna will be missed.

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Date: 2010-02-12 02:38 am (UTC)
ext_150: (Default)
From: [identity profile] kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com
I always read them because I just...can't imagine not. Unless it's a badly-written fic, in which case I've either ditched it or any skimming all of it to get to the end as quickly as possible, I just don't want to miss possibly important information.

Date: 2010-02-13 01:54 am (UTC)
ext_2351: (reading by thelastgoodname)
From: [identity profile] lunabee34.livejournal.com
:)

I skip a lot of stuff in profic too, not just fanfic, so maybe I'm just lazy. LOL

Date: 2010-02-12 05:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] decynthus.livejournal.com
To skip or not to skip? That depends on how horny my mood. If I'm looking more for story, and it's not especially well-written, I'll skip.
As for pressure to include sex, I once asked a BNF in the Harry Potter fandom to read a fic of mine and offer comments. This person missed a major plot point, and the excuse was that it was only briefly mentioned, and that "you can't expect people to read a story that closely. It's click,click,click to get to the sex!" Maybe that's all that writer wanted from a fic, but I thought it was a sad way of looking at fandom, especially from someone who produced so many well-written, plot driven fics. Anyway, a couple of other commenters made it all better, picking up on things I hadn't said at all, only implied. They were paying attention!
That fic was my first foray into online fandom or anything remotely slashy. I'm guilty of stretching the rating from what should have been a mild PG-13 to an R, hoping to get more attention. I don't know if that worked, but I discovered being more pleased by a few thoughtful comments than a series of "squees".
I haven't done much writing, honestly. I'm uncomfortable writing sex and did feel pressured to put it in, so I've got a folder full of fics stalled at that point. You're right about attitudes evolving over time. I started out looking for just R's and NC-17's, but then found myself enjoying a lot of lower-rated fics in spite of myself. Lately I spend more time looking at rec lists and summaries than ratings. Now that I've realized that "it's ok even if there isn't a lot of sex", I've decided to pull up those old files and rewrite them to suit me. If the sex stays in, it'll be because it serves a purpose, and because we need to push those comfort zones sometimes, too. I love this discussion; it's something I've thought a lot about, so please to be forgiving the novel.
ext_2351: (reading by tabaqui)
From: [identity profile] lunabee34.livejournal.com
Oh, wow. What a thing for a beta to say to you. *shakes head*

Most of the pressure I've felt to include sex has been less overt. Like noticing that the fics most often recced include sex scenes or are considered "hot." Or in feedback to my fic, having the sex scenes and situations praised more highly than plotting or characterization or something like that.

I initially felt really uncomfortable writing sex because it wasn't a kind of writing I'd done before. With practice, I got over my initial qualms. When I first got into fanfic, I read everything--EVERYTHING--and was equally delighted by it all because it was so novel. Now that I've been in fandom for five years, I am so much more interested in story and characterization than anything else. I almost never ever ever read true PWP anymore. I've noticed that people will call stuff PWP sometimes when it's really not, as an aside.

*via metafandom delicious*

Date: 2010-02-12 05:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] carnadosa.livejournal.com
Skipping over sex: if it's ikea, if I'm really into the story for the plot and it's the second (or third or tenth) sex scene and I'm getting bored, if it's clearly there merely because the author felt there should be one, if it hits my embarrassment squick or sometimes I'm just not in the mood.

My feelings on sex scenes as a reader has changed over the course of my fannish involvement, mostly to that I’m a lot less embarrassed that I enjoy some of them and am willing to look for pwp, if that’s what I’m in the mood for.

My general sense for stories with sex scenes getting more attention has to do, I think, with the stories that I typically read. As my delicious tags will show, I like gen but I really really love shippy stories. If a story is really good at selling the ship, that author is probably talented enough to write a decent sex scene (so the sex scene isn't the cause of the attention, just an effect of having a good writer and the general perception by authors that the payoff of all shippy fics is the sex). That's my theory anyway.

A good sex scene should: sell me on the ship, sell me on the mood of the story, and sell me on the characters involved.

Purpose of sex in fanfic, well, that depends on the story, doesn't it? If it's a short, first time shippy fic, it's almost expected the payoff will be sex. I don't agree that it HAS to be, but it's the easiest/most used shorthand for intimacy and cementing a shift in relationship to coupledom (that is so a word).

What I would almost never like to see again: someone saying "come for me". It very very rarely works for me and I wager I see it in about 20% of sex scenes I read. Half the time I'm like, no, that person definitely would have started laughing or something if you had done that. And, seriously, if you're going to go there, could you switch up the wording or something? Work a little harder to make it fit that couple(threesome...).

What I would like to see more of...frontage! I love frontage because it has the "actively working to orgasm together" thing that penetrative sex often has (that blow jobs and hand jobs don't always do as well) without the prep or supplies. I'd like to see less of a reliance on penetrative sex as the ultimate intimacy symbolically without actually selling me on that couple having that intimacy. I'd actually really love to see more discussion of limits and preferences before-hand and exploration during. I mean, sometimes "fuck me right now" works for a character/pairing, but sometimes it doesn't.

Re: *via metafandom delicious*

Date: 2010-02-13 02:06 am (UTC)
ext_2351: (are those men kissing? by animekittysama)
From: [identity profile] lunabee34.livejournal.com
YES!

Come for me.

*dies laughing*

If somebody said that to me during sex, I fear that I would either giggle madly or possibly slap them before giggling madly. I am sure that some readers/writers really get off on that or that it reflects their real life experiences or it wouldn't be so prevalently used in fic, but it just makes me laugh.

Frottage is nice. As are blowjobs and handjobs and cunnilinguis and all of those wonderful wonderful things that can be done under a table. LOL My friend Ariadne recently mentioned that she hates when fics have to culminate in the One True Consummation of Penetration and I tend to agree. One of my favorite slash fics ever is [livejournal.com profile] glossing's Nice Shirt (http://www.exitseraphim.net/glossings/niceshirt.html). It's Xander/Oz; it spans years; and never once do they have anal sex. And yet, the sex they do have is so very satisfying and so indicative of their relationship with each other.

BJ and the Bare?

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Re: BJ and the Bare?

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Date: 2010-02-12 08:52 am (UTC)
ext_56709: (Default)
From: [identity profile] jjjean65.livejournal.com
Depends on my mood if I skip a sex scene or not or if I'm cruising for pwp one! I really hate the slick, one, two, three finger and enter scenes... no imagination at all.

I prefer to read ones that leave a bit to the imagination.I have written both hot stuff and fade to black. I have a fic writing mate who writes gen and slash versions of her stories as she straddles both styles, she does it very well too.

I read a fic for the story mostly and I'll read stuff out of my usual fandoms if it is recced by someone I know (like you!) even if it is het/gen or slash.

Date: 2010-02-13 02:09 am (UTC)
ext_2351: (cool lesbians by jjjean65)
From: [identity profile] lunabee34.livejournal.com
That's interesting that you mention writing two versions of stories. That something that I saw a lot more of when I first got into fandom. I can't remember the last time I saw someone offering up a racier and a tamer version of a story. (Well, I lie. I saw that not too long ago in a Star Trek reboot comm, but I can't remember beyond that)

I'm glad you trust my recs. :) I enjoy getting the word out about the things I find that are awesome.

Date: 2010-02-12 11:21 am (UTC)
ext_6732: (Default)
From: [identity profile] kitty-poker1.livejournal.com
38. *raises hand*

I think it depends on the style of fic. I recently read a very long, complicated HD where the whole point was when, how and why they got together and felt cheated when the climactic sex scene was FTB. To the point where it wasn't even clear who'd topped, which seemed important to the integrity of the story.

In most stories, I'm perfectly happy for the sex to be glossed over... 'And they woke up the next morning in tangled sheets.' Works for me. I know the mechanics of sex and don't need to have it described in sometimes gruesome detail unless I'm in the mood for some PWP.

Date: 2010-02-13 02:13 am (UTC)
ext_2351: (help by jjjean65)
From: [identity profile] lunabee34.livejournal.com
Woooooooooo! Let's get those numbers up, baby. :)

This is totally incidental to your comment, but I have recently been gorging myself on Harry/Draco and I was wondering if you have any recs or know of any good rec lists that I might mine. I've been working my way through one (http://sulky-rhino.livejournal.com/101987.html) but it was posted in 2007 and most of these fics were written waaaaaaaay before Deathly Hollows. Also, I just finished it last night, so.... *grin*

I know exactly what you mean about feeling cheated by the absence of the sex. When the story itself makes such a big deal about it and then drops the ball, it's disconcerting to say the least.

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Date: 2010-02-12 03:06 pm (UTC)
lyr: (NekkidJayne: teh_indy)
From: [personal profile] lyr
I think I covered most of those questions in the last post, but I think I didn't really touch on how to keep things fresh and original, and what I'd like to see more of. I think that, as I said before, if a scene is completely particular to the characters and the situation, it will feel organic and integral to the story. I also think, though, that a bit a technical crafting can invigorate the scene, too. To a certain extent, the basic blocking of the scene doesn't even have to vary that much, although creative blocking can also be fun (though it really helps to field test these ideas, because I can't count how many times I've been thrown out of a story by reading something that I know from experience is either flat-out impossible or really uncomfortable). I think it also helps to remember that there isn't a set script for how sex is supposed to go; the order of things can vary, and there can be dialogue, arguing, laughing, teasing, interruptions, missteps, or a hundred other things. Part of this is knowing that sex can mean many things, and none of them is inherently better or more intense or more sex than any other. So a sex scene doesn't have to be all about the penetration, although it certainly can be, and it can have lots of other flavors of sex, either exclusively or inclusively. Lastly, when I'm writing sex, I feel that a verbatim description of the action isn't really as powerful as a carefully selected and phrased collection of images. When I remember sex I've had, that's how it works, after all; I'll remember the sharp press of teeth in my collarbone, or the slight warning creak in my hip when I forgot myself and spread the joint open too far, or the cold shiver of spit-wet silk clinging to my skin. And I find that just those tiny fragments carry more punch than if I narrated every last touch and gasp and drop of sweat. So when I write a sex scene, I'm looking for the images that will convey the experience most strongly, and I'm trying to couch them in words that not only woo the ear with lyricism, but also present novel metaphors and images that will stand out and stick in readers' minds. I obsess over getting just the right adjectives and terminology, and shy away from words and metaphors I've seen too often before (I avoid any variation of "touched to his/her very core", for instance). What works best to accomplish all that is honestly to try out what I want to write (or remember a time when I already did it, or something very like it), put myself as deeply into character as I can, and see what parts of the experience seem to be the...tent poles, if you will. Then I have to play with the words until I think I've got those snapshots as vivid and arresting for readers as they were for me.

As to sex scenes I like, there was a particular one in a later chapter of one of [livejournal.com profile] eliade's Alias-fandom series that sticks in my mind as particularly good (although all the sex scenes in that series were great), even years later. It may not be quite as strong excerpted by itself, without the weight of 9 chapters of character and relationship development behind it, but it's over here.
Edited Date: 2010-02-12 03:07 pm (UTC)

Date: 2010-02-13 02:19 am (UTC)
ext_2351: (firefly unzipped by jjjean65)
From: [identity profile] lunabee34.livejournal.com
Yes, yes, yes, yes. Over-narration in sex scenes is really problematic for me. This is not a laundry list of every single thing that the characters are doing in bed. Judiciously edited details (and I love the ones that you chose for your examples!) work the best. Same goes for sex talk. Don't get me wrong. I love when people talk, like actually talk, during sex scenes. But there's only so much of, "Oh, baby," "yeah, yeah, do me," or "love the way you taste" I can take in any given sex scene. Throws me right out.

I think that's so interesting that you mine your own experience so heavily for sex scenes. I do to a certain extent, I guess, but not really. I'm much more likely to mine my own experience for setting details or details of characterization (Dean likes the same song I do or what have you).

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(I only just noticed!)

Date: 2010-02-13 02:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thelastgoodname.livejournal.com
I have nothing useful to add except that I adore your entirely appropriate subject line. I'm sure they did, but she only comes when she's on top.

Laid, baby

Date: 2010-02-13 02:47 am (UTC)
ext_2351: (heart by jjjean65)
From: [identity profile] lunabee34.livejournal.com
Line my eyes and call me pretty.

Re: Laid, baby

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Re: Laid, baby

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Date: 2010-02-13 03:32 am (UTC)
rahirah: (Default)
From: [personal profile] rahirah
To me sex scenes should function like any other scene in a story: they should advance the plot, reveal character, or establish tone, mood, and atmosphere. Preferably all three. If they don't do any of those things, I'll usually skip them. I'll also start skimming if a sex scene goes on and on and on and on - what interests me is how the characters feel and why they feel that way, not an exhaustive play by play.

Date: 2010-02-13 06:54 pm (UTC)
ext_2351: (gay agenda by jjjean65)
From: [identity profile] lunabee34.livejournal.com
I love your icon. :)

I agree about the exhaustive play by play. It's not a science report that will be fact-checked later. LOL I feel the same way about fight scenes. I don't need to see every single swing and pivot or have a detailed aerial map drawn for me of the locations of all the principal players.

Date: 2010-02-13 04:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ivanolix.livejournal.com
(Here via metafandom.) I always read sex scenes, because...well, I like sex. I like thinking about sex. I like talking about sex. I like having sex. I like imagining sex. Especially sex in the context of my favorite characters. It's simply a matter of libido and how I incorporate that into life (and so, therefore, fiction).

However, I expect sex more in oneshots and less in longfics, because the former is about characters and the latter is about characters+plot, and much of the character-related aspect of sex can be covered in fade to black scenarios (falling to bed/skip to afterglow/morning after). As a writer, though,

I do feel like sex scenes are expected in a longfic where a relationship is a main aspect of the plot. Why? Simply because that's what I see other longfic writers write, and those chapters often get more comments from fans of the ship.

As for what good sex scenes should do...I think they should reflect the involved characters as well as portray them, in a scenario that uses the power of arousal to get that character message across. And in that regards, I wish we got more sensory sex scenes. Descriptions of tiny movements with big sensations, of smells and sounds and feelings and more aspects then just how good it feels to have penis/clitoris/vaginal/anal stimulation. I want to read authors' interpretations of what little kinks get the characters off...not the "kinky" fantasies they have (though also that, yes) but things like loving to have a scar stroked, or their belly button kissed, or that sweet spot on their scalp, etc. That, for me, never gets old.

And in that same vein, I'd like to see more non-penetrative sex. Penetration is really hot, but you can't have your favorite meal every day of the week, and there are so many options that don't get explored often enough. New positions are good, but what about new strategies altogether?

Date: 2010-02-13 06:59 pm (UTC)
ext_2351: (meta foucault by jjjean65)
From: [identity profile] lunabee34.livejournal.com
*nods*

Like what Kitty says upthread, in relationship fics, particularly fics in which sex forms some integral part of the plot (are they gonna do it? how are they gonna do it? etc), it can be disappointing if the sex is omitted.

I am a huge fan of the erotic of the mundane--not the exotic or the kinky (although, yes, I fangirl that as well *g*), but the little things, as you say. The potential erotic power in small touches, in kind gestures, in the routines we develop, in the stray thought. Those moments are so very powerful to me in fic because they are generally much more deftly handled (and more poignant) than sex qua sex.

Here via metafandom

Date: 2010-02-13 04:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pin-drop.livejournal.com
If an author isn't interested in writing the sex, that comes through, and it reads like (s)he was just going through the motions. I tend to skip authors who don't like what they're writing -- not just the sex scenes, but often the whole fic.

I think a good sex scene is one that's not gratuitous... Or, at least, one that's not only gratuituous. By which I mean that sometimes sex can feel like, "Wow, this is really hot, but beyond that why is this level of detail important?" I like it much better when it actually forms a necessary piece -- when it illustrates something about the character(s) involved or the setting, when someone's emotional arc is developed or we learn something new about the relationship( or marriage, or enmity, or friendship, or whatever) which we're seeing unfold. I like it when a sex scene feels relevant to something which matters in the larger scheme of the story.

Re: Here via metafandom

Date: 2010-02-13 07:12 pm (UTC)
ext_2351: (writer by sukibluefiction)
From: [identity profile] lunabee34.livejournal.com
*nods*

I know that in my earlier fic, I wasn't interested in writing sex. In fact, I was pretty actively terrified of it LOL and I think that definitely shines through in the sex scenes I wrote for my first two major longfics. I was tentative about the whole thing and so the writing was tentative.

Although, now that I go back and look at that scene, it's not as poorly done as I remember it being.

Spike opened the door to his apartment and tossed his duster on the coffee table. He fanned out a stack of restaurant menus on the end of the counter, pulling a green one from the pile. “You wanna get some Chinese takeaway, luv? That place down on South Seventh has good—“

Xander took the menu from Spike’s hand and threw it back on the counter. “Shut up already, would you? Last night on earth, remember?” And then they were kissing, hard and desperate, hands fumbling with buttons and zippers. They fell back on the couch clumsily, Spike’s mouth wet and moving on his neck.

Finally, they were both naked, pressed thigh to thigh, chest to chest. Spike made little needy noises into Xander’s neck when Xander twisted his hips against him and ran his hands down between them. Then Spike pulled back from him, just looking, his body never stopping that slip slide against Xander’s, his hands busy on Xander’s damp skin. Xander could see himself reflected in Spike’s eyes, could see his own mouth open and panting for breath, his own cheeks flushed with desire. He wondered what Spike saw in his eyes. Me. Only me.

They kissed again, and then Spike was slipping wet fingers into him. Xander gasped and clutched Spike’s shoulders tightly. Spike looked at him once more, as if searching for doubt, before easing himself into Xander, sliding forward gradually until flesh met flesh. He stopped for a long moment, their bodies joined together motionlessly, Xander slick with sweat, shaking and biting his bottom lip. Then Spike drew back and pushed into Xander again, again, again, until the edges of everything blurred and Xander felt warm and liquid. When he came, Xander thought he would dissolve, become indistinct from Spike, from the bed, the room, the almost unbearable pleasure that flowed into him from every place they touched.

Later, much later, when they were both limp and exhausted, Xander curled around Spike’s back and pressed his face into Spike’s shoulder. They slept.

Xander woke once, lamplight on his face and Spike busy scribbling something on a sheet of loose leaf at the desk. Xander watched Spike write, watched the quick movements of the tendons at his wrist, the furrow in his brow when he paused to think. Xander dozed again, and when he woke next he was alone.


There's some character grace notes in the scene, but there's too much emphasis on the blocking of the scene rather than the emotions of the characters and I'm sliding headlong down the slippery slope with everyone's "unbearable pleasure." LOL
Edited Date: 2010-02-13 07:13 pm (UTC)

Re: Here via metafandom

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Also here via metafandom

Date: 2010-02-13 04:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aris-tgd.livejournal.com
I think that a good sex scene is like a good fight scene. Actually, I'll go farther and make that a declarative sentence: A good sex scene is exactly like a good fight scene. You have two characters who have reached an emotional point so important that the only thing left is physical confrontation. And in a good scene, something happens to change the characters or advance the plot or otherwise carry the story forward.

As a writer, to me a sex scene isn't worth writing out if something new doesn't happen as a result of it. So usually if the character is doing something they haven't done before, or they're trusting someone they haven't trusted before, or they're in any way unsure--that's what I want to write about.

Re: Also here via metafandom

Date: 2010-02-13 07:16 pm (UTC)
ext_2351: (reading by tabaqui)
From: [identity profile] lunabee34.livejournal.com
I really, really like the comparison you make between fight scenes and sex scenes. Beautifully said. And like a good sex scene, a good fight scene shouldn't be a tiresome blow by blow account of what happened but rather a judiciously edited moment that gives us the physical action, the characters' emotion, and any other character grace notes.

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Date: 2010-02-13 04:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dagas-isa.livejournal.com
(here via metafandom)

I'd always read sex scenes, even bad sex scenes-if only to deduce what is wrong for it. The only ones I'd skip over would be the ones that particularly hit a squick.

Honestly, I've never been 'pressured' to write sex in my fic, except for one reader, who upon finding out that I had unpublished sex fic on my computer was sad that I didn't share them out.

Good sex scenes...should be in character, should be well-written, and should fit a larger purpose (even if that purpose is just to arouse the readers).

Personally, when I write sex fic I like bringing in what I imagine the character's mental/emotional/cultural attitudes towards sex are going to be like and how that particular encounter fits into a much larger context. There's also a lot of humor. Sex is funny. Most of it fails at being porn at all and ends up being more 'stories about sex' if that makes sense.

Date: 2010-02-13 07:24 pm (UTC)
ext_2351: (btvs: mom by paigegail)
From: [identity profile] lunabee34.livejournal.com
Yes!!! Thank you for mentioning humor. Some of my all time favorite sex scenes in fic contain elements of humor. I'm not talking crack fic here where everybody's penguins (although, yay for that too LOL), but rather serious fic in which the sexual encounters are imbued with some sort of humor. Sex is, as you say, funny. And I love when a writer will break up the momentum with humor--knock the pace askew just a little--to show us that the characters are comfortable with each other, or conversely, that they're *not* and they're deliberately deflecting the intensity of their passion just a little.

I am also a huge fan of awkward or bad sex in fic. Sex is not perfect. Most of us don't come at the same time as our partners (although I have it on good authority from a friend that that does indeed happen for some people); most of us don't have eighty three orgasms in a ten minute period on a regular basis. I'll go out on a limb and say that most people on average don't have spectacularly good sex the first time they have sex with a new partner period. And I love when a writer isn't so invested in OTPness that they can allow the sex scenes between the characters they've paired to not be the mechanism by which their perfection for each other is revealed. You know what I mean? Isn't sexual compatability kind of a really shitty basis for soul mates anyways? I'd much rather know that I belong with the other half of my OTP because ze's always got my back or ze thinks of me as family or ze can always make me laugh rather than ze makes moonbeams shoot out of my hooha with the force of my undulating pleasure. But perhaps that's just me. :)

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From: [identity profile] dagas-isa.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-14 07:27 am (UTC) - Expand

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Date: 2010-02-13 07:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thefrogg.livejournal.com
*waves from Metafandom*

There's a lot of reasons I skip sex scenes at this point. The main one, though is that there has to be a reason for it besides the sex. If it's there to move the story forward, if the plot won't work without it, etc., then it's appropriate to have in the story and I'll read it (provided that it's written decently well. I don't read bad sex scenes to figure out how not to write my own - that's what I have betas for.). I may or may not read PWPs - I tend to like rarepairings, so I tend to read anything I can get my hands on of, say, Lorne/Ronon. Or Todd/anyone. Unless it totally squicks me for some other reason. But PWPs probably won't keep my attention for more than one reading. There are exceptions, but usually not.

Most fanfic I find these days - hell, a lot of published works I read - have some, if not all, sex scenes that are there just for the sake of sex. The story wouldn't suffer for leaving it out, and in many cases would benefit from it.

That's the main reason why I tend to skip over sex scenes as a reader.

There is one author left I will read just for the sex - I will skip sections of plot just to get to the smut rather than the other way around - and that is Matthew Haldeman Time (hhtp://matthewtime.com).

As a writer, I have tons of trouble writing sex scenes. The sex-as-essential-to-story part is a big piece of it; another is that I want to be known for my writing, not for how much sex I can cram into it. I haven't written a lot of sex scenes, but the handful I have...have a lot of people going "Why don't you write more sex scenes?" (I'm fairly certain that's the second most commonly asked question on my own LJ, next to "Where's the rest/more please/etc.")

The other reason is that...I had, and am still dealing with, traumatic childhood issues (medical, not abusive, but the psyche doesn't differentiate in terms of response - I've been mistakenly id'ed as a childhood rape victim more than once just from subconscious defensive behavior patterns). Most (non-squicktastic/triggery) sex scenes are fine, reading-wise; writing them is often uncomfortable and squirmy in a not-good way. Every sex scene I've managed to write in some way has to do with characters dealing with their own issues, whatever those are. Writing in general is a form of self-therapy, IMHO, and for me, never moreso than when I'm trying to write smut.

This probably got into TMI, but I honestly don't mind talking about it.

Date: 2010-02-14 09:29 pm (UTC)
ext_2351: (Default)
From: [identity profile] lunabee34.livejournal.com
Not TMI at all. Thanks for sharing your story with me. I really appreciate the honesty.

I haven't written a lot of sex scenes, but the handful I have...have a lot of people going "Why don't you write more sex scenes?"

*nods*

I've gotten or seen remarks like that one in other people's comments. I wonder if it's just easier sometimes for writers to praise the sex scenes--that was so hot--than to comment on other aspects of the story?

Writing in general is a form of self-therapy

*nods*

I think a lot of writers, including myself from time to time, approach wriitng in this way.

Date: 2010-02-13 05:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] darkhavens.livejournal.com
I just took your poll. :D

I tend to skim the characterless, formulaic sex; the 'one finger, two finger, three finger, fuck' scenes; the ones that are there to fill a quota - two chapters of plot, one chapter of porn, two chapters of plot, one chapter of porn, etc etc. Oh! And the sex scenes that have obviously been written in tag form, with the co-writers each playing one of the chars. Nothing turns me off faster than being dumped into a sex scene that is more about the people writing it than the chars they're supposed to be 'playing'.

Dialogue during sex cannot be rambling monologues or even complete sentences, not if they're doing it right. If the characters are carrying on a back and forth dialogue without interruption or losing track of what they were talking about, they're obviously not into the scene and neither am I.

When I write sex scenes, I try not to get too technical. I try not to label too many bodyparts or give step-by-step narration. It's more erotic, I think, to read about the participants' reactions rather than their actions. How does A's touch make B feel? How does A's skin feel beneath B's fingers or taste on C's tongue? Does B shiver when A holds him too tight? Does B understand why A is holding him too tight and does that turn him on even more or make him want to reassure A or hug him?

Successful sex scenes put me in the mind of at least one of the participants, not just their body. And if it's not recognisably that character's mind, the scene doesn't work for me.

Date: 2010-02-14 09:32 pm (UTC)
ext_2351: (Default)
From: [identity profile] lunabee34.livejournal.com
I don't know that I've seen a lot of fic that's written in tag form where the characters are more avatars for the writers (which makes me glad because that sounds like it would be quite dreadful to read).

I think I disagree with you a little about dialogue during sex scenes; I'm okay with a fair amount of it, but mileage may vary. :) That's a totally subjective thing.

When I write sex scenes, I try not to get too technical. I try not to label too many bodyparts or give step-by-step narration. It's more erotic, I think, to read about the participants' reactions rather than their actions. How does A's touch make B feel? How does A's skin feel beneath B's fingers or taste on C's tongue? Does B shiver when A holds him too tight? Does B understand why A is holding him too tight and does that turn him on even more or make him want to reassure A or hug him?

I think that's a very useful way of approaching writing a sex scene.

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From: [identity profile] darkhavens.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-02-16 04:09 pm (UTC) - Expand

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Date: 2010-02-13 06:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] merisunshine36.livejournal.com
(here via metafandom)

I love that you're talking about this, because as a big genfic writer, I think about it often. When I started in fandom at age 13, I was primarily looking for the pron. And that kind of makes sense to me, because you're hitting puberty and taking those stupid health classes about STDs and well, you think about sex a generous amount of the time. Twelve years later, I rarely read PWPs unless they're by an author I know and like, and my reading choices follow rec lists and known authors rather than ratings. When I do read pornier fic, I want the sex to provide additional character development, and of course, be smoking hot. *g*

As a writer, I've pretty much always leaned towards genfic, because my primary interest in fanworks lies in further exploration of friend/family relationships. As a gen-lover, I have definitely felt the effects of the sex goggles fandom seems to wear--a few years ago I did one of the Harry Potter genfic exchanges and was disappointed at how tiny the number of participants was compared to that of the slashier ficathons. Even now, in reboot Star Trek fandom, the one slash story I've ever written has more hits on AO3 than all of my genfic combined. But I've hit the point in my fandom journey where I write fic primarily for myself, and post them in case someone else might receive some enjoyment from it as well.

On the OTHER hand, I think that one of the big reasons there is so much porn in fanfic is that fandom serves as a sex-positive space for many people who might not have that IRL. The world is still pretty hush-hush when it comes to sex talk, and in fandom you can try out all your kinks, explore your sexuality, etc. without any of the consequences. And that's a big draw.

Date: 2010-02-14 09:34 pm (UTC)
ext_2351: (Default)
From: [identity profile] lunabee34.livejournal.com
I write a lot of gen myself. In some ways I prefer writing it. And while some fandoms are very generous to gen writers (SPN fandom comes to mind right off the bat), very few gen stories get as many comments and as much attention as stories with sex scenes in them ('ship stories). It can be a little frustrating at times.

I think you're right about fandom being a sex-positive space for a lot of people. I know that throughout the course of my fannish invovlement, I've discovered a lot about myself and my sexuality that I don't think I would have had I not found fanfic *and* the infrastructure that surrounds it--people to talk about what I'm reading with.

Date: 2010-02-15 11:42 pm (UTC)
mf_luder_xf: (XF Mulder)
From: [personal profile] mf_luder_xf
As for reading, I can't think of any I've ever skipped out on. Once I started reading them, that is (which was about two months into fandom, anyway). As to why I always read them, a) it's part of the story. I don't skip scenes in real books why would I skip something in fanfic? b) it may reveal details about the characters or the situations. If the sex scene is bad, usually the whole fic is poorly written and I've stopped reading anyway. If I'm not in the mood for sex, I'll read one of the fics off my massive 'to read' bookmark list that isn't NC-17. To be honest, though, that doesn't usually happen.lol

As for writing, I guess I've never felt pressured to write one. Sometimes I notice fics with more sex getting more comments, but I also dislike getting just the "HOT!!" comments. I write mainly sexualized stories, but not always and never because I feel like I have to in order to receive comments.

And as to what the sex scene should do...well, it should be hot. But more than that, it should help identify something about the characters and/or the setting. How characters react during sex reveals something, what they think while having sex also reveals something. Over all, those tidbits can be "hotter" or at least are more interesting than the sex itself.

(PS: I'm surprised so many people said they skipped them.)

Date: 2010-02-18 10:54 pm (UTC)
ext_2351: (Default)
From: [identity profile] lunabee34.livejournal.com
*nods*

Considering how many of the respondants to the poll feel like their readers expect sex scenes, it is interesting to note how many of those who took the poll admitted skipping the scenes. :)

Thanks for weighing in on the topic!

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