gimme something to talk about

[lunabee34]

So, I'm feeling talky and I don't have the time and/or sobriety to put together a cogent meta piece. *jazz hands*

In lieu of that, here's a couple talking points.

1. I'm putting this one outside the cut because most of y'all don't give a toss about SGU and the rest of the Gateverse is old news. ariadne83 and I were talking about the recent coup staged by the civilians on Destiny and it struck me that whatever faults a viewer may find with this show (and I'd not deny that it's got 'em), one thing it gets abso-fricking-lutely perfect is the depiction of the tension between the military and the civilian contingents of the Stargate program. Neither SG-1 or SGA ever really deal with that issue in a way that I find satisfying. SGA makes the token nod now and again, mostly through Caldwell or Ellis glowering at Elizabeth/Sam, and of course the international expedition and the IOA are evidence of that tension. But if SGA deals with the conflicting goals of military and civilian parties at all, it's in terms of a one-off episode and it's never the focus of an entire episode. SG-1 explores the issue in a little more depth, but on that show the tension is framed wholly in terms of the singular, and very personal relationship between two men--Daniel Jackson and Jack O'Neill. It's compelling as all get out and some kickass character work, but it's not a thing that SG-1 extrapolates much further than those two men. SGU has made that tension central from the get-go, part of the backdrop--the white noise, if you will--of every single episode, and I really freaking like it. So....if you're watching SGU, what do you think about the way the show is articulating that tension? If you're not, what do you think about the way the rest of the Gateverse handled it? What would you have liked to see in terms of an episode or story arc?


2A. I've been thinking about two things re: SPN. The first has to do with SPN's conception of heaven. Forgive me if this is all muddled and ridiculous because I'm having a really hard time articulating what I mean but here goes anyway. First off--heaven sucks ass. Like really. The notion of re-living your best memories is kinda nice until you realize they're stuck on rote repeat and if you deviate from script, they just keep on playing around you as if you're still responding. Granted, we get to see Ash functioning with some degree of autonomy, and dare I say glee, but he's really the only dead person whose report of heaven jives even a wee tad with my idea of a rocking afterlife. Now here's where the flaily hands come into play. I think that the show is doing a damn good job of showing us that even though the angels and demons are using the language of Christianity and other religions to describe their powers and what happens to people after they die and the nature of good and evil and destiny and just about any other cosmic force you wanna name, it's not really *heaven* or *hell* or *god* or *the devil* or *angels* or *demons* in the way those religious traditions espouse. OMG this makes perfect sense in my head. LOL Like, if there really is a heaven that's a reward for heroism and being good and what-not--IT AIN'T ANYWHERE WE'VE SEEN. And if there's a hell that punishes the bad guys, it ain't the one Dean's been to. And since the only fundamental difference between angels and demons is their alleigance--they don't really fit the mold either. And that gives me hope for the ineffable, you know? That still and always behind the sordid machinations on both sides that something real and good does exist. Otherwise, I think Kripke has maxed out even Lorraine's angst potential. Which like not even broken Severus Snape with no magic and sold to Harry Potter in a post-apocalyptic distopian future has managed to do.

2B. I fan a lot of shows in which an elite group of people (the Scoobs, the SGC, hunters) move among us mundane folk covertly and protect us from whatever's out there in the dark, often without thanks or any other kind of recognition. So one of my all-time favorite bullet proof kinks is that shielded world rising to the occasion and getting back some of its own. My absolute favorite, hands down, moment in all of the Buffyverse is that scene in "Graduation" when every single student stands up wielding weapons and participates in her own liberation. I cannot describe to you how my heart swelled seeing that for the very first time when I had no idea how the episode would end. And so, one of the problems I've always had with SPN is the way that the Winchesters leave the people they save without the ammunition to save themselves. They ride in, banish the baddie, and ride out again with no one the wiser as how to protect themselves, even the people they've saved. I wrote a story in which Ava won't let them leave until they've given her a Demons 101 primer that she has laminated at Kinko's. LOL What sort of dumbass would let them just canter off into the sunset without some serious, "And I keep the evil out of my toddler's room how again?" So I was absolutely thrilled to see a town in "99 Problems" that was fighting demons together, that was given the tools to protect itself, and I don't see the episode as tragically as some other reviewers that I've read. Yes, they were manipulated. Yes, they were operating under false pretenses and they were driven to showing, as we often do when we're afraid, the real underbelly of humanity. But the simple fact remains that these people know the truth now. They're TRAINED HUNTERS! The Whore of Babylon certainly gave them a false exorcism rite, but everything else they were doing was on the money. Those townspeople know how to protect themselves and their families now and you don't just unlearn a thing like that and I suspect that redemption is on more than one mind. And this can't be the only place that people are banding together and either figuring out for themselves or under the tutelage of a hunter kicking a little demon ass. Even if Sam and Dean win, things will never ever be the same again. This is gonna be a world that's fundamentally changed. And I really, really dig that.

Comments

[alizarin-nyc.livejournal.com]

WOW WOW WOW. Stop hurting my head. Dammit, it's a Friday night have mercy!

So....if you're watching SGU, what do you think about the way the show is articulating that tension?

I'm watching SGU and I'm sure that you're right, but I can't bring myself to care. I sort of want the military to shoot all the annoying civilians and then themselves, leaving Eli, Greer and that sort of nameless *slutty but butch* military chick to repopulate a new civilization. I want to find at least one character that is sympathetic, because I know they did not just make a show about every asshole in the world on a ship together. Unless they did.

As you can see, I'm really having trouble with this show. Not because of anything controversial or whatever, but because most of the time I'm just bored. *deep sigh*

Your thoughts on SPN rock me down to my socks, man. Yeah, Heaven, not so much. Pamela's take was "well, it's better than life." Not a ringing endorsement. I still believe that God will come into the picture this season and prove himself, and there will be that reckoning of good v. evil and so forth. And if not, or it's something else, I'm cool, because the ride is really amazing.

You're spot on about Dean and Sam being the Elite, the HUNTERS, woo hoo, and I was really annoyed with this when they treated Jo like some sort of baby sister when that was never meant to be her role. She's supposed to go to college and forget all the bad shit? Right. Then the Winchesters wouldn't get to do *angst-face* every episode about how hard things are for them and they wouldn't be so weak whenever an enemy used the Daddy or Mommy or Brother card. LOL. Don't get me wrong, I love it and wouldn't have it any other way.

But I was pretty excited at the idea of DanielJackson!Hunter and his posse. And thought it was an amazing twist when the Winchesters managed to let the boy get killed, even though they were supposed to be the big badasses.

*jazz hands*

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

I've like SGU from the beginning. It's got its handwavy moments, like anything else in the Gateverse, but I think it's a really interesting premise. I don't think the characters are entirely without sympathy, but I do think they are a lot more flawed than the core characters of the other Gateverse shows. I find myself liking them even so, though. LOL

Re: SPN, I kept wondering if that was really Pamela, or hell, really Ash for that matter. Because that didn't sound like Pamela to me (or maybe I'm just letting my fanon version of her interfere with reality).

I hope we don't actually SEE God, but I would love his Unseen Hand to work some wonders for them.

Daniel Jackson was so gorgeously scruffy. I could watch him slouch down in pews all night. LOL

[lyr]

1) I am, against all my expectations, still watching SGU. I like it better now, too. I have to admit that I'm mostly watching for the Young/Rush factor, though. I still think the writers are totally ignoring all kinds of consequences, not to mention consistent, three-dimensional characterization for most of their characters. But that brings me to the whole civilians vs. military conflict, which I mostly liked. I did think the conflict sort of wimped out there at the end, but I was willing to go along with it since I'd liked it up to that point. I would like to see more fallout, especially since Young (whose characterization seems to be relatively good and stable) seems to have realized that the civilians did, in fact, have a point. He's made some serious mistakes, and he's not an especially good leader, loyalty-engendering charisma aside (and his apparently earnest attempt to get better at these things lately endears him to me). Sooner or later, I want to see them experiment with a new balance of power. I think it would make sense to have a more complex governing system, and I like the way we've seen Wray and Rush and Young talk (read: argue) over major decisions together lately; that could grow into something very cool. I always wanted to see SGA do that, too, actually. I wish that Atlantis had not restablished contact with Earth so soon, or possibly at all, because then they would have had to really become a colony, with all the problems and adjustments that entails. How cool would it have been if, by the time they restablished contact with Earth, they wanted to remain a seperate, sovereign government? I'd like to see something of that sort happen on Destiny, too.

2) The theology of SPN occasionally confuses me, but I'm glad that they've taken a non-traditional approach to demons and angels and heaven. My first instinct, when team Free Will got snubbed by God, was to think that they should of course go out and solicit other gods for help. I think that would be interesting, but I don't expect that's what'll happen.

B) And don't forget Bobby's hometown, which will never be the same again, either.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

I think that's what I really, really like about Young. He's, as alizarin says above, a pretty unsympathetic character in many ways. He's a cheater. He left Rush to die. He uses Eli to spy. Hell, he had sex in someone else's body without permission. And yet, I do get the sense that he cares about the safety of the people he's entrusted with and that he knows he's done wrong and his conscience is pinged.

God yes re: SGA. I adore beyond the telling those fics where Atlantis is left on its own for years and then doesn't want to play ball when the IOA waltzes into the galaxy and tries to take their home from them.

And you're so right about Bobby's hometown. Now that would be a kickass fic. Five People Who Come to Terms with the Fact that Bobby Singer is Not Actually the Town Drunk and/or Loony.

[lyr]

And he abused his authority to have sex with TJ, leaving her in a really awkward position, which is an extra ick beyond the basic cheating. Without his efforts at getting better, I'd find him really unpalatable.

I love those fics! I have the beginnings of one on my harddrive, in fact. Must get around to finishing it one of these days.

That would be an awesome story. And you know who should write it? You. You're so great at fleshing out those neglected margins!

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Maybe I will write it one of these days. :) I think that would be a really great gen Five Things fic. :)

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

And you gave me Earth day happies!! yay! *hugs*

[lyr]

It's an awesome, meaningful holiday for me. Yay! *hugs*

[creedcascade.livejournal.com]

I'm watching SGU. I like how the tension and mistrust is explored. BUT, I also enjoy that they have a non-military character that errors on the side of "naturally" trusting and following authority, as so many do. Namely, Eli. The contrast between Eli, Chloe, and Scott, who are all from the same generation.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

*nods nods*

I agree. Although, I think that Eli's capacity for trust is waning and I like that the show is in many ways about the dissolution of his trust and naivete.

Eli, Chloe and Scott are such an interesting triangle in a lot of ways. Chloe in particular is a really complicated character and I'm interested to see where they take her.

[tabaqui]

Wheeeee!
:)

Okay, SG:U - i'm watching, and i'm loving. Yes, it has its issues and its faults, for sure, but over all, i'm enjoying. And i have to say i'm right on the side of Wray and Rush and the other civilians, because being under the 'rule' of the military, just because they have the guns, would suck. And that's the *only* reason they're under their rule, because the military is no more trained or ready for life on Destiny than the civilians are - in fact, they may be *less* ready, since they got a very mixed bag of soldiers and most of them seem to be just plain old 'grunts', as it were, not like Special Forces or anything that you have to have some college and some hard-core training and some life experience under your belt to achieve.

I thought that the civilians giving up and giving in so fast was kinda lame, and the soldiers getting brutal so fast was spot on. When the military panics, it goes straight back to basic, and basic ain't pretty.

I also have major, major issues with Young. I don't trust him, I don't think he's a fit commander, i don't think he thinks clearly in a crisis. He puts himself and his second at risk too often, and he has that 'never leave a man behind' mentality that'll end up getting *more* people killed, in the long run.

Rush may be a bit of a cold-hearted bastard, but he's ruthlessly practical in his decisions. Um. However - i adore Rush, and pretty much fangrrl all over him so it's possible i am a wee bit biased. (Though i disliked Young from pretty much episode two onward.) (And Chloe. Dear gods. I wish she'd fall into a hole and die.) (Cough.)


Kripke and Show have a very strange idea of heaven. Very *lonely* and odd. I think this last ep did a little more to define the theology of the show than before but still - yes. Very odd. Nobody is good, heaven and hell are kind of subjective, and god? Is the miserable bastard i always thought he was. Still *loving* Show, oh yes, so much.
*flails*

I wonder about the people they save, too. I think those people probably go on to either block it all out and pretend it never happened, or they do some research and learn some things and live a slightly more paranoid life. But really - Sam and Dean spend so much time dodging the law and helping people who are more than happy to willingly disbelieve their own experiences, it would take too much time and effort to teach them *all*, even if they would listen and not just blame the boys for what had happened, you know?

And yes - Graduation and also the scene at the prom, when they acknowledge that Buffy has saved all their asses, that she's out there *fighting* for them....makes me tear up every time. :)

[thelastgoodname.livejournal.com]

I have no comment on either SGU or SPN, but I do have a comment on something else entirely: Phillip Pullman's written something new (http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/the_tls/article7097229.ece), and it looks like it might satisfy all my urges to understand his perspective on religion in a more organized and solid way. That is, perhaps he's finally gotten to point where he can fictionalize his feelings appropriately, rather than shoehorning them into a story where they don't fit. Or not, since I haven't actually read the book yet.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

That sounds really fascinating. I'd like to have his cosmology presented in a more readable and less *flaily hands* kinda way as well. LOL